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| Birdless world; stronger K-T | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 5 2009, 08:41 PM (4,594 Views) | |
| Canis Lupis | Nov 5 2009, 08:41 PM Post #1 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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65 million years ago, an asteroid struck Earth and wiped out a good percentage of life on the planet. Among the extinct were all dinosaurs (save for birds), all air reptiles, all marine reptiles, and a few groups I forgot to mention (I'm not a paleontologist, so if someone were to name all the groups that went extinct, I'd be grateful). Anyway, what I was wondering was: what if the asteroid had been slightly larger? Large enough to count the birds among those forever buried in the fossil record. What would the post K-T world be like without birds? Discuss ideas and possible creatures. P.S. If you're interested in turning this into an actual project, let me know. |
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| Canis Lupis | Nov 14 2009, 03:32 PM Post #136 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Yeah, they won't be dominant. They'd just be there, but runners would definantly still be dominant. Atek: The mesonychids are native to Laurasia (North America, Europe, and Asia). The sebecosuchians are native to Gondwana (South America, India, Africa, Antarctica, and Australia). In Africa, India, and Antarctica, sebecosuchians quickly go extinct when they encounter the mesonychids (as in Africa and India) or when the temperature cools (as in Antarctica). They still hold on in Australia and South America, because the former stays isolated until modern day and the latter stays isolated until the Great Continental Interchange. I can see a marsupial/sebecosuchian codominance of both continents. With the dominat sebecosuchians, I don't see megalania-like lizards evolving. Megalania-like crocs, sure. But lizards, no. In South America, the sebecosuchians are doomed when the GCI (Great Continental Interchange) occurs. Marsupials would fair a bit bitter, especially the faster ones. But, unless sebecs are warm-blooded (someone please tell me one way or the other), they are doomed. If sebecs are warm-blooded, however, their could still be a few species holding on after the GCI. And in fact, a few could spread into North America. |
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| Holben | Nov 14 2009, 03:36 PM Post #137 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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Good facts. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| The Dodo | Nov 14 2009, 04:14 PM Post #138 |
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Prime Specimen
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If sebecosuchians rule Australia I guess there is no chance for terrestrial Mekosuchine crocodiles to evolve. There could be megalania like lizards evolving when the australian contient dries up they could fair better than the crocodiles. |
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| Holben | Nov 14 2009, 04:14 PM Post #139 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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Of course, when it dries up. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Canis Lupis | Nov 14 2009, 04:33 PM Post #140 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Well, I think notosuchians (like sebecs) were more terrestrial and could retain water. Therefore, they could probably survive when Australia dries up. |
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| ATEK Azul | Nov 14 2009, 06:11 PM Post #141 |
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Transhuman
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Okay well I was thinking fast and armored any way instead of one or the other, but it is your project. And why are Sebecosuchids not around today? Also I thought you said Eurasia not Luarasia. And that is why I thought Marsupials could take over both Americas. Also are nromal Carnivora members in this? because if so I see them becoming diverse Mustelid equivelents, maybe with Tree climbing and otter like groups? As for the hooved carnivores I think they would fit more into Hyeana and Bear niches. Plus a few more unique ones like maybe a Cheetah like scavenger who uses speed to take kills from predators? And Marsupials will take left over niches where they are better. As well as Saber tooth niches. |
| I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's! | |
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| Canis Lupis | Nov 14 2009, 11:02 PM Post #142 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Eurasia and Laurasia. I could see where you'd get mixed up. Apologies. No one knows why sebecs died out. I and Metalraptor are sure it has something to do with birds (like the gastornids and the terror birds), but no one is sure. And, while I see why you suggested a fast armored creature, it most likely would not work. More often than not, armored creatures are slower than their non-armored cousins. Though there are exceptions (aren't there always). The rhinos are among them. As for normal carnivorans, sure. They wouldn't be extinct due to the mesonychid presence. And, of course, mustellid niches will be theirs. While mesonychids could evolve into these mustellid niches, I think carnivorans will take these niches before their ungulate counterparts. And Atek, those are the basic niches mesonychids had on HE. They'll maintain their niches but, as you suggested, will expand due to the lack of carnivoran competition. Of course marsupials will. That's how niches are "won". The creature more fit to take that niche will take that niche. That is why macropods work better where they are and why zebra work better where they are. If macropods were introduced to Africa, I have no doubt that zebra would outcompete them. And vice versa. |
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| Holben | Nov 15 2009, 05:33 AM Post #143 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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For herbivores, like tanks, there is a balance. With tanks it's speed, armour, and firepower, but obviously you can't have 40 inches of armour and a 100 pounder and still drive at mach 1. With herbivores, there is defence (offense is a method of defense) and speed. Since most animals find it easier to evolve speed, it is dominant, and also, with armoured ones, the carnivores can more easily evolve crushing mandibles, so although there are armoured herbivores, they don't tend to be dominant. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| ATEK Azul | Nov 20 2009, 12:54 PM Post #144 |
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Transhuman
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Okay so we now have fast herbivores dominant but do they have to be Ungulates/Notoungulates? Also I suggest we start trying to think of the niches and locations of the Bats and Marsupial Flyers(Group Name?). |
| I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's! | |
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| Holben | Nov 20 2009, 01:43 PM Post #145 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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Do we have where the bats evolved? |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Canis Lupis | Nov 21 2009, 11:25 PM Post #146 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Group name for the marsupial fliers (suggestion): Marsiptera (from the Latin "marsippos" meaning "little purse" and the Greek "pteron" meaning "wing"). Commonly called pouchbats. |
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| Holben | Nov 22 2009, 11:14 AM Post #147 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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Pouchbats sounds nifty. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Margaret Pye | Feb 12 2010, 07:45 AM Post #148 |
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Adult
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Hey, this looks fun! Flying mammals outside the "teeny winged echolocating shrew" niche are always good! Sorry to be controversial, but I don't get why polar bats are a bad idea. Can't they just evolve thick insulating fur all over their wings, and some heat-exchange blood vessels so that the membrane can be barely warm enough to prevent frostbite without sucking heat from the rest of the body? And I'm all in favour of flying marsupials - apparently marsupials can see red - but how would a mammal evolve feathers? I can't understand the structure, or a plausible intermediate. Feathers are so complicated that they're unlikely to evolve more than once, and I just don't get how fur would evolve into an analogue. You know what I've always wanted to see? Powered flight with Draco-style wings. Obviously to avoid compromising visceral protection, you'd want the ancestral creature to have projections sticking out of its ribcage rather than using the ribs theselves. But having evolved little frills along the sides of the body, maybe for display originally, and then moving into gliding, and then adding articulations and muscle - it should be theoretically possible. Am I too late to ask if anyone else wants these wings? Attached to a lemur, maybe, or a squirrel? Even if nobody wants powered Draco flight, Draco gliding wings on a mammal would be fun. (Just because Metazoica did it doesn't mean it's a bad idea.) Also, on multituberculates: I'm not a paleontologist, but given that they survived and recovered from KT and then went extinct a few million years later, I was under the impression they were ecologically replaced by rodents taking over the same niches. So unless something's happened to the rodents, Birdless World should still be multituberculate-free. And haven't rodents been around since pre-KT? Quite likely primates too, extrapolating from a rather dubious fossil record. And given how appalling the bat fossil record is, and how early and derived Icaronycteris is, I've heard a lot of currently untestable theories that bats predate KT. If that's true, then these groups would have started out in pretty much the same place without birds. |
| My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont. | |
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| Carlos | Feb 12 2010, 01:04 PM Post #149 |
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Adveho in me Lucifero
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1- I would love to see a fur covered winged bat, but I'm just unsure if it has aerodynamic implications. That said, anurognathids did had wings covered with pycnofibrils, so maybe... 2- Feathers aren't terribly hard once you find a way to develop a quill/barb that branches off; considering the variety of fur derived structures mammals have, I don't think its hard at all
Multies only died out in the Oligocene (and had a brief golden age in the Paleocene/earlyEocene), but considering this world has a stronger mass extinction maybe you're right. That said, bats only evolved after the KT event, as before there's evidence of possibly flighted volaticotheres (their teeth were discovered in landmasses already far apart, so flight could had been developed) |
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Lemuria: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/ Terra Alternativa: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/ My Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Carliro ![]() | |
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| Canis Lupis | Feb 13 2010, 07:59 PM Post #150 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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As I've stated before: birds are the only new things wiped out by K-T. Multis were not wiped out by HE's K-T and multis are not birds. So they survive K-T. If you survived HE's K-T and you are not a bird, you will survive AL's (Avian Less) K-T. I don't see why feathers are absolutely necessary for cold-weather flight. From what I can tell (and JohnFaa, please correct me if I'm wrong), pterosaurs were able to fly in Mesozoic cold weather and they didn't have feathers. Why should a flying mammal need feathers when they could just evolve polar bear-like fur? |
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7:18 PM Jul 10