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Birdless world; stronger K-T
Topic Started: Nov 5 2009, 08:41 PM (4,591 Views)
Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

65 million years ago, an asteroid struck Earth and wiped out a good percentage of life on the planet.

Among the extinct were all dinosaurs (save for birds), all air reptiles, all marine reptiles, and a few groups I forgot to mention (I'm not a paleontologist, so if someone were to name all the groups that went extinct, I'd be grateful).



Anyway, what I was wondering was: what if the asteroid had been slightly larger? Large enough to count the birds among those forever buried in the fossil record.

What would the post K-T world be like without birds?

Discuss ideas and possible creatures.


P.S. If you're interested in turning this into an actual project, let me know.
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sam999
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Evolved bats as the domennt flyers instead. Other then that mostly the same.
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Venatosaurus
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Hmmm, maybe squamates could've stepped up to the plate ?!



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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Since Diatryma-like birds presented such a huge problem for early mammals, I'm thinking mammals wouldn't have that to deal with and could become big early on.

I like your bat idea sam. In fact, I thought of that originally.

Squamates are another likely choice.




Now, to the best of my knowledge, there were four main groups of mammals (three persist today). These are:
  • multituberculates
  • monotremes
  • marsupials
  • placentals


Now, I don't know much about the multituberculates. All I know was that they persisted into the Paleogene, then went extinct.

Anyone know why? If it were bird-related, how would they have diversified?
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ATEK Azul
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I think Bats would be super diverse and the other Mammals would be able to grow larger and diversify quicker along with maybe some new or old(extinct) groups diversifying and surviving to the present day?

Also we might see a dead antarctica.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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Venatosaurus
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Maybe, antarctica wouldn't be so dead, if a lineage of mammals developed flight by utilizing stiffened, matted hairs, rather than an extended skin membrane, and heat loss wouldn't be so dramatic. I'm sure pristichampsids and sebecosuchians would too have larger roles to play, since they would lack competition from birds, especially sebecosuchians ! But the differences in this world, I presume, wouldn't be too great.



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Iowanic
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Earthworms might take over the land?
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The Dodo
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Earthworms?

I could imagine Antarctica could have some sort of ocean going bats flying over searching for fish. Maybe there would be giant bats like the ones JohnFaa comes up with.

I guess the top predators of South America until the Great American Interchange would be metatherian predators such as Thylacosmilus. New Zealand would be interesting maybe flightless bats, large sphenodontia or the native mammals before they went extinct.
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Carlos
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Quote:
 
Since Diatryma-like birds presented such a huge problem for early mammals, I'm thinking mammals wouldn't have that to deal with and could become big early on.


Actually no; from what we know nowdays gastornids were probably large omnivores, like ceratopsians. True, they would still offer competition for mammals, but no more than birds like Brontorns or the dromornids, which co-existed with quite large mammals themselves. The fault was mainly because of crocodillians like Pristichampsus, the sebecosuchians and mekosuchines, which took niches nowdays associated with large predatory mammals. In fact, if the asteroid killed of birds there's no hopes for crocs at all; what about having champsosaurs in their place instead?

As for multies, they we badly affected by the KT event, and while they recovered during the Paleogene the Oligocene's rise in glires lead them to extinction. If the KT event was as strong as you claim, I doubt they'd survive at all
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

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The Dodo
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Yes, if the K-T extinction was stronger a lot more organisms would be extinct, but I think they just want to concentrate on what if there were no birds after the K-T extinction.
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Ddraig Goch
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Quote:
 
large omnivores, like ceratopsians.


Okay, sorry, sidetracking slightly, but I didn't realise that ceratopsians were omnivores?!
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Holben
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Nah, they ate ferns and low cycads. And maybe flowering plants.

But rodents would take over the land, as they are actually omnivorous.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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ATEK Azul
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I will repeat the above question, Ceratopsians were omnivores!?!?

Also if Crocodillians and Multituberculates are gone this would be a weird world.

Maybe the Ancestor of the cetaceans(its equivelent any way) would conquer Crocodillian niches?

Also Bats as we know them are not going to survive the polar regions meaning that Antarctica is animal free and and the north pole has no flyers.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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Carlos
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My fucking God, are you guys living under a stone!? Ceratopsians turned out EONS ago to have been omnivorous at the level of hippos at least! Look at their frecking jaws; they look nothing like the jaws a decent herbivore like pachycephalosaurs or hadrosaurs were.

Quote:
 
Also Bats as we know them are not going to survive the polar regions meaning that Antarctica is animal free and and the north pole has no flyers.


That is highly subjective. Migratory bats could occur, specially large ones that would make modern large birds like condors and albatrosses wet themselves if they could urinate. Also note the possibily of winged mammals that have feather like fur instead of wing membranes.

As for your other comment, yes, cetaceans could step onto crocodillian niches. However, I'd still expect giant amphibians and choristoderes/other reptiles to take over the ambush predator niches, since an ectothermic metabolism is more usefull to wait over long periods of time until prey comes to you
Edited by Carlos, Nov 6 2009, 01:41 PM.
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

To answer your question, yes, i have been living under a stone, and thought they were herbivores like almost evryone else.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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