Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Speculative biology is simultaneously a science and form of art in which one speculates on the possibilities of life and evolution. What could the world look like if dinosaurs had never gone extinct? What could alien lifeforms look like? What kinds of plants and animals might exist in the far future? These questions and more are tackled by speculative biologists, and the Speculative Evolution welcomes all relevant ideas, inquiries, and world-building projects alike. With a member base comprising users from across the world, our community is the largest and longest-running place of gathering for speculative biologists on the web.

While unregistered users are able to browse the forum on a basic level, registering an account provides additional forum access not visible to guests as well as the ability to join in discussions and contribute yourself! Registration is free and instantaneous.

Join our community today!

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Airsacs in bats
Topic Started: Sep 11 2009, 02:42 PM (991 Views)
Carlos
Member Avatar
Adveho in me Lucifero
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Probably an idea you might be tired of hearing from me, but that I think its quite interesting. Modern bats, being mammals, have the typical mammalian pulmonary system; the fact that they lack the complex air sac system of birds and pterosaurs pretty much means they have a largely unpneumatized skeleton. That, coupled with the limitations on the respiratory system itself (the ribs are completly fixed unlike in other mammals, thus they rely solely on the diaphragm to fill and empty the lungs; although they have lungs more efficient at absorving oxygen than other mammals, they still can't expand much, and more energy is used when breathing), renders bats as being more limited than birds and pterosaurs in their size, and as a result in lifestyles.

Therefore, I came with a way of solving this problem, which may or may not be accurate so I think I will need advise from more experient people. The mammalian pulmonary system can't evolve into a one identical to that of birds - the avian lungs don't contract, only the adjacent air sacs do so, leaving the lungs always in the same shape, for example, and thats the tip of the iceberg - so mammalian air sacs would work in a way different from that of birds. Initially they likely evolved as extensions of the lungs, probably as means of absorving oxygen more efficiently, either expanding the surface area of the lung or simply serving as oxygen pockets to replenish the lungs. Eventually, connections with the skeleton would occur as in birds and pterosaurs, and eventually like in large flying birds and pterosaurs the air sac system could expand into the propatagium and afterwards into the main patagia as in azhdarchids and ornithocheiroids, thus not only pneumatizing the wing bones but also allowing them to inflate the wing membranes.

Besides reducing body weight, the airsacs would be usefull for bats because they could have broader, stronger bones; due to the fact the bat skeleton is in modern species largely unpneumatized, they have thin, fragile limb bones. With a pneumatic skeleton the wing bones could become larger and stronger as in pterosaurs, thus not only allowing bigger sizes to be achieved more easily but decreasing the risk of limb injury.

I currently designed two groups of bats that developed airsacs independently: the Aendochiroptera and the Neovespertilionidae. The first evolved from the flying foxes, and have a quite complex air sac system, having reached big sizes and becoming analogous in terms of ecological niches with pterodactyloids besides the typical frugivorous and omnivorous forms. The other evolved from modern vesper bats, and still have a rudimentary air sac system, not really being that different from their modern ancestors
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ATEK Azul
Member Avatar
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
This sounds very plausible and would be a great accomplishment for Bats maybe to the point of giving them that edge to start out competing Birds or at least start becomming bigger and filling nocturnal versions of niches normally controlled by Birds during the day and diversifying.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Troy Troodon
Member Avatar
Prime Specimen
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I've actually been wondering that myself; Why haven't bats evolved a similar skeletal or even organic structure to pterosaurs or birds if they had evolved powered flight?!
I was benevolent and good, but misery made me a fiend!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vorsa
Member Avatar
Mysterious tundra-dwelling humanoid
 *  *  *  *  *  *
Posted Image
My Deviantart: http://desorages.deviantart.com/

Birbs

"you are about to try that on a species that clawed its way to the top of a 4 billion year deep corpse pile of evolution. one that has committed the genocide you are contemplating several times already. they are the pinnacle of intelligence-based survival techniques and outnumber you 7 billion to 1" - humans vs machine
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Troy Troodon
Member Avatar
Prime Specimen
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Sorry; I just found this and thought it was interesting.
I was benevolent and good, but misery made me a fiend!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Carlos
Member Avatar
Adveho in me Lucifero
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
In retrospect, it's the limitations of the mammalian tidal lung. You can't get space for airsacs with a diaphragm on the way, after all.
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jaxuar
Member Avatar
Fetus
 *  *
I have a question, Why would bats need to developed airsacks? even if it was convergent evolution how would it developed airsacks in the first place? it would depend on the activities it does in a regular basis to have options that it will provide it the most efficient way to survive in the wild, I do not see how becoming larger is necessary to survive as most bats are doing just fine, unless a species of bat tries to specialize on prey that is large compared to the size of the bat.

(I wonder if bats could develop pack hunting behaviour)

I hope this information helps.
Quote:
 


Posted Image

Muscle Power: Bats Power Take-Off Using Recycled Energy

July 5, 2013 — Bats are uniquely able to stretch and store energy in their bicep and tricep tendons during take-off and climbing flight, giving them an extra power boost. A new study on fruitbats, to be presented at the meeting of the Society for Experimental in Valencia on July 4, used cutting edge technology to image how these small mammals move through the air.
Dr Nicolai Konow (Brown University, USA), who led the research said: "Energy is stored in the triceps tendon, which is used to power elbow extension -- in essence, elbow extension happens using "recycled" energy. State of knowledge, and our results, indicates that bats are unique among small mammals in stretching their tendons, as small mammal limb tendons are thought to be too thick and stiff to be stretched."
"By combining information about skeletal movement with information about muscle mechanics, we found that the biceps and triceps tendons of small fruitbats are stretched and store energy as the bat launches from the ground and flies vertically."
The researchers used a cutting edge 3D imaging technology called XROMM (X-ray Reconstruction of Moving Morphology) that allows visualizing rapid internal skeletal movement. XROMM combines 3D models of bone morphology with movement data from biplanar x-ray video to create highly accurate re-animations of the 3D bones moving in 3D space. The researchers also used a novel method called fluoromicrometry, where small radio opaque markers are implanted directly into muscle, which allows measuring length change with high precision and accuracy during contractions.
These findings indicate that the action of muscles powering animal movements through fluids may be influenced by series elasticity, and that at least some limb tendons in small mammals can be stretched by muscular and aerodynamic forces, enabling force control of joint movement.
This research will likely have relevance for the development of autonomous micro aircrafts and potentially also amphibious search and rescue vehicles.


Quote:
 

Why Bats Are More Efficient Flyers Than Birds
Posted Image


Flexible, highly articulated wings give bats more options for flight than birds: more lift, less drag, greater maneuverability.
Credit: K. Breuer, Harvard University

Their motions might seem erratic and graceless, but bats are more efficient flyers than birds, thanks to an airlift mechanism that is unique among aerial creatures, new wind-tunnel tests show.

Previous studies that compared oxygen consumption among birds, insects and bats of similar sizes—a hummingbird, a small bat and a large moth, for example—found that bats [image] use less energy to fly, but “no one’s really had an explanation for this phenomenon,” said study team member Sharon Swartz, an associate professor in ecology and evolutionary biology at Brown University.

The wind tunnel tests suggest the secret to efficient bat flight lies in the furry creature’s flexible skin membrane and its many-jointed wings, which together creates a shape-shifting structure that provides more lift, less drag and greater maneuverability.

Like human hands

Unlike insects and birds, which have relatively rigid wings that can move in only a few directions, a bat’s wing contains more than two dozen joints that are overlaid by a thin elastic membrane that can stretch to catch air and generate lift in many different ways [video].

This gives bats an extraordinary amount of control over the three-dimensional shape their wings take during flight, Swartz explained.

“Insects can move the joint at the insect equivalent of a shoulder, but that’s the only place where they can exert force and control movement,” she said. Birds have many more joints in their wings, but it’s nothing compared to bats.

“Bats are operating with the same skeleton that we have. Every joint in the human hand is there in the bat’s wing and actually a couple more,” Swartz told LiveScience. “Think about the degree of control that we have over the shape of our hands—bats are able to extend that to make fine scale adjustments during flight.”

It was once thought that despite having so many wing joints, it was more efficient for bats to stabilize their wings and wave them up and down like relatively rigid paddles the way birds do.

“What we see when we look more closely is that in fact, it’s not what they’re doing,” Swartz said in a telephone interview. “It suggests that they’re able to take advantage of this highly jointed system to make subtle adjustments to the wing shape during flight.”

Stretchy wings

The other key to a bat’s efficient flight lies in its highly elastic wing. Videos from the wind tunnel tests show that a bat’s wing is mostly extended for the down stroke during straightforward flight. But because the membrane can curve and stretch much more than a bird’s wing can, bats can generate greater lift for less energy.

By blowing non-toxic smoke over the bats [video] as they were flying, the researchers were also able to create a video that revealed how air flows around the creatures as they flap their wings.

The data showed that during the down stroke, the air vortex—which generates much of the lift in flapping-wing flight—closely tracks the animals’ wingtips. But in the upstroke, the vortex appears to come from another location entirely, perhaps the wrist joint.

The researchers think this unusual pattern helps to make bat flight more efficient and credit it to the tremendous flexibility and articulation of the wing.

Model for flying machines

The findings, detailed in the Dec. 2006 issue of the journal Bioinspiration and Biomimetics, suggest the furry fliers might make good templates for flying machines.

“Bats have unique capabilities, but the goal is not to build something that looks like a bat,” said study team member Kenny Breuer, also of Brown University. “We want to understand bat flight and be able to incorporate some of the features of bat flight into an engineered vehicle.”

The complexity of bat’s wings also challenges some current theories that say bats evolved from some kind of flying squirrel-type creature.

“That might still be true, but what we know today is that although gliding appears to have evolved seven times in mammals,” Swartz said, “not a single one of those groups is closely related to bats.”


Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Troy Troodon
Member Avatar
Prime Specimen
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Frankly what I think bats really need are hollow bones for a stronger or more durable skeletal structure, that way some of them could even be as big as eagles.
I was benevolent and good, but misery made me a fiend!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dakka!
Member Avatar
Prime Specimen
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I you can't get big, get more. Why should bats need to change anything physically? Just develop pack hunting behaviour and the spectrals will have it made!
"I was a Psychiatrist in Florida! For 3 weeks! Have you ever been to Florida?"




Some project ideas
The Future is Right
Ediacaran Explosion
Great Old Ones
Skinkworld


Unrelated:The Final Spec:What Could Have Been, And Still Can
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jaxuar
Member Avatar
Fetus
 *  *
W.C.K.D
 
If you can't get big, get more. Why should bats need to change anything physically? Just develop pack hunting behaviour and the spectrals will have it made!


I hope this is useful, if you want to read the rest of the information then click the link below.
Quote:
 


Group Hunting—A Reason for Sociality in Molossid Bats?


Abstract

Many bat species live in groups, some of them in highly complex social systems, but the reasons for sociality in bats remain largely unresolved. Increased foraging efficiency through passive information transfer in species foraging for ephemeral insects has been postulated as a reason for group formation of male bats in the temperate zones. We hypothesized that benefits from group hunting might also entice tropical bats of both sexes to live in groups. Here we investigate whether Molossus molossus, a small insectivorous bat in Panama, hunts in groups. We use a phased antenna array setup to reduce error in telemetry bearings. Our results confirmed that simultaneously radiotracked individuals from the same colony foraged together significantly more than expected by chance. Our data are consistent with the hypothesis that many bats are social because of information transfer between foraging group members. We suggest this reason for sociality to be more widespread than currently assumed. Furthermore, benefits from group hunting may also have contributed to the evolution of group living in other animals specialized on ephemeral food sources.


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009012






Maybe spectral bats could develop larger claws to latch on prey.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Edited by Jaxuar, Jan 7 2017, 03:11 AM.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · Evolutionary Continuum · Next Topic »
Add Reply