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Amphibination; Part 3 now up
Topic Started: Aug 26 2009, 02:16 PM (6,327 Views)
StinglessBee
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This is an alternate world where amniotes never evolved. Meanwhile, the Permian extinction was more gradual, allowing the reptiliamorphs (amniote-like amphibians such as Seymouria and Diadectes) to survive. All other extinctions happened as normal. The way I see this world, there are three main orders: lissamphibians (which are more diverse than real world amphibians, but do not produce megafauna), mammaloraniformes (descendants of Seymouria group reptiliamorphs), and throat breeders (descendants of Diadectes group reptiliamorphs, which produce most of the megafauna).

The throat breeders are generally social creatures which nurse their young in modified vocal cords in a similar way to a Darwin’s frog.

The mammaloraniformes, meanwhile, will have an internal ear drum together with ear bones seperate from the skull, and will be fully warm blooded.

The lissamphibians won't be producing anything larger than a badger for two reasons: firstly, many of them breathe through their skin as well as through their lungs, resulting in them needing a large body surface to volume ratio and secondly because they lack the reinforced spine that amniotes and some reptiliamorphs have (come to think of it, badger size may be pushing the limit...)

Anyway, may I have critique, advice, or suggestions please. If anyone can think of a better name than those I've come up with, then please tell me. Also, for those who wish for pictures, they will come... eventually (don't expect master pieces: I am, at best, a dreadful artist).

Anyway, here is are a few orders and families to begin with:

Class: Throat breeder (sorry: I'm not good with latin or greek names)
Order: Scale rats

These are the creatures from which all other throat breeders evolve (as these were some of the survivors of the K-10 Cretacious extinction). Whilst they are origionally descended from the herbivorous Diadectamorphs, these are omnivorous creatures that grow up to the size of a fox. Whilst they are scaly (reptiliamorphs were) these scales are more comparable to those of a carp than to reptile scales. They communicate by a mixture of scent, body language and (in some species) colour changes, as the vocal cords are used to carry their young. These creatures fill rodent niches, and a few derived scale rats fill primitive primate niches.

Class: Mammaloraniformes
Order: Seal mimics (not an actual name, just a stand in until someone thinks of something better)

These are very basal members of the class, in which many members of the order haven't evolved vivipary. These are mostly marine, but several species swim upriver to lay their frog-like eggs. They and their larvae have pits in their head for sensing the electricity given of by muscles. Most species prey on fish and fill seal and sea lion niches. However, a family of whale like creatures exist (these have evolved vivipary). These fill the niche of humpback whales (eating small fish en mass) or grey whales (eating invertebrates from the sea bed en mass).

Class: Lissamphibian
Order: Anura
Family: Leaping tadpoles/rabbit frogs

These are frog-like creatures that maintain the coiled gut used in their tadpole stage to digest plant matter. These grow up to the size of a rabbit, and can be distinguished from other members of the frog/toad order by the more spherical body, which contains the larger digestive system. These (and several other families of frog) have abandoned the usual jumping ability in favour of a odd form of gallop, similar to that used by some crocodilians in real life. They have achieved most of their diversity in colder regions, as they can hibernate easily. Some even have a natural anti-freeze in their blood and muscles (some frogs do this in real life, so why not?)

Anyway, there is plenty more things to come. So... what do you think?
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 26 2009, 04:33 PM.
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The Dodo
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Maybe the mammaloraniformes could have the hair-like structures, they are warm-blooded after all.
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Rick Raptor
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Too bad Amphibians can´t survive in saltwater, it would be cool to see some neotenic amphibians (like Axolotls or certain salamanders) taking over the niches of whales or seals.
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StinglessBee
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Well, if you want alien, here's the relatives of the squirtle's I thought of:

Class: throat breeder
Order: Oceaniformes
Suborder: Spooks (manes)

When these were first discovered, the scientists had some trouble deciding what it was. Eventually it was discovered to be a neonatal throat breeder, most related to squirtles. However, whilst the squirtles use their colour changing abilities to communicate, these use it to diguise themselves, blending into the background with perfect colour changes. This is perfectly illustrated with this story from a scientist researching the marine life of amphibination:

My research team and I were in a rubber dingy boat, watching a colony of seal mimics from some way away. None of them seemed to want to swim, despite the presence of a shoal of fish beneath us. It soon became apparent why. Literally out of no where, a huge beak attacked the dingy. A creature, the size of a great white had appeared out of no where, flashing red. It dragged our boat down, before attacking Lily, our fish expert. All we found after the attack was a leg, that could have been hers. I think the cameraman had a mental breakdown after that... What scared me the most, was that I was sure that nothing that big could disapeer so quickly..."

The above story displays the colour changing ability (it is worth noting that this attack occured in almost empty water, thus meaning that the spook hid by making itself look exactly like what ever was on the other side of it) of the spook, in this case an Giant Dutchman (due to their ability at hiding, and then surprising scientists by "appearing out of no where" has resulted in species being named after ghost ships and famous water demons; even the name of their suborder is also the name for a form of ghost who the Romans would attempt to placate with sacrifice). They are far larger than there relatives (the Giant Dutchman mentioned hadn't reached full size, though it is unknown what that actually is), with a sharp beak covered in skin cells, and teeth designed to slice through the flesh of aquatic amphibians. There body shape is fairly varied, though all have a fish like tail, designed for pursuits after an ambush, and flipper like limbs which allow them both manouverability and bursts of speed. Most fill the niches of tiger sharks and Great whites, with a few in Grouper like niches and at least one species being social and filling an Orca like niche.

They have the same parental care other Oceaniformes, and some males have been known to use their young to attract prey (pretending that it's young are a shoal of fish whilst hiding just below them).

For those thinking that amphibians can't survive in salt water, well fortunately their reptiliamorph cousins had scales.

Hope you like them. Oh and you mentioned dragons Venatosaurus... well, you're fairly close with that...
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 30 2009, 08:38 AM.
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Venatosaurus
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Awesome little update ! We need more pics though, and what are you planning with dragons ?!! :o



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StinglessBee
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You'll see... later today. I will give you one hint though... think of the older legends of European dragons. Before they had wings...

As for pics, well I'll try to do some more.
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Venatosaurus
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Oh I was just going to suggest amphibians with --- wings, I had something similar in my old amphibiproject, but one group was aid by their arrow/disc shaped heads. I want to suggest so many more things but it's your project, so I'll let you express your ideas before I express mine XD



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StinglessBee
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Venatosaurus: please express your ideas! The more advanced mammaliranaformes have yet to have much written about them, and there is always room for more throat breeders and lissamphibians (or anything else for that matter). And I assure you, the creatures below will have flying relatives. So... if you, or anyone else, has a desire to express an idea, then go ahead! You'd be doing me a big favour!

Anyway, the dragon-like creatures I mentioned (latin name comes from the European mythical beast: the cockatrice):

Class: Mammaliranaforme
Order: Knuckers/Lind wyrms (latin name: cockatriformes)

These are another group of basal mammaliranaformes, though less basal than the seal mimics. They are a group of creatures with elongated, sometimes snake-like bodies (some even have vegestial or no limbs); powerful jaws, and limited amounts of hair, in the form of whiskers, hairs in the nostrils used to aid their acute sense of smell and of hairs on the feet, used to muffle the sound of their footsteps. The adults are predatory creatures, filling the niche of big cats. However, the way they kill their prey is rather different. Some are constrictors, squeezing the life out of their prey. Others are highly venomous. But the most interesting thing about them, is probably their larvae. Like other more primitive mammaliranaformes, these lay their eggs in water. However, they have evolved several curious defence mechanisms. One example is that the larvae mimic native shoaling fish, and hide amongst the shoal. But the greatest example is found in a group of European knuckers. In the old European legends of dragons, they were so venomous that if they were to drink from a well, it would be poisoned for hundreds of years to come, and their lairs were completely lifeless. Whilst no knucker is that venomous, a small family of knuckers have developed a biological habit that is, if anything, more impressive. The adults have cyanobacteria covering much of their skin, clinging to the scales of the creature. When they enter water to lay their eggs, the cyaenobacteria also releases their spores into the water. Now these cyanobacteria are nitrogen fixing, like many others like them. Introduced into the pond by the knucker, these microbes flourish on the nitrogen they release, outcompeting the pond's plants. This results in an ecological collapse, with the plants dieing from not getting enough sunlight, the herbivores dieing from not getting an food, and the predators dieing from not being able to see their prey in order to catch it. However, several species of filter feeding tadpole survive, providing food for the larval knuckers (which hunt mainly using their electric sensors). When the knuckers change into adult form, the cyanobacteria cling to it's skin, allowing it to move to other pools to spore in. Whilst the potential for ecological disaster is immense, these knuckers (nicknamed glow knuckers, since the cyanobacteria covering them glow red in green light and green in red light) try to lay their eggs in the pools closest to those they were born in, and are less territorial than other knuckers, making their activities localised.

I am unsure of the plausability of the last biological habit, but it was only way I could find of replicating some of the deathly powers of the European legends of the dragon. I hope you like it.

By the way Venatosaurus, I like your idea of bipedal lissampibians. As we've already used the name of a Nitendo character, how about we call them Yoshis (singular: Yoshi)
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 31 2009, 07:56 AM.
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Venatosaurus
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Actually the large sausage shaped amphibian I mentioned in my earlier post should be made to be a Knucker or Lindwyrm ! They fit in that family very well ! I also like how they have some "fur" on their bodies, which if not aiding in insulation could have some definate benefits for sexual attraction ! For the fliers, why not include a clade with extended rib-wings, they'd be most notable in the tropics of East Asia, New Guinea, Australia, and other neighboring islands. I think you should develop some sort of cladistics tree, as it'd aid in developing family branches for your project dating back to the point of divergence in your world ;) I'll PM you some ideas, just say the word when you want them ^_^

As for these Knuckers, I don't know about the nitrogen secreting ability...

Edit: The Sausage shaped amphibians should remain lissamphibians...adds a little more diversity and a mix of convergent evolution between both groups.
Edited by Venatosaurus, Aug 30 2009, 02:24 PM.



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StinglessBee
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Good plan! I was thinking of the knuckers living mostly in Europe and Africa, possibly in parts of Asia, so the sausage shaped lissamphibian could easily live in the Americas (salamanders and newts haven't been given much attention, perhaps it could be one of them).

The flyers... well, great minds clearly think alike! I was thinking that their wings would be formed from the front limbs fusing with an extended rib cage, with the rest of the wing being formed from membrane. I was thinking they should be roughly as basal as knuckers, with a furry mane being used for sexual attraction (using another of you're ideas!). Of course, they would still maintain some scales. I also liked your earlier idea for "hairy" slime birds, which use their hair both as insulation and for adding extra surface area for absorbing oxygen.

I will do a cladistics tree shortly... Expect it to be up over next week. Probably early in the week.
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Venatosaurus
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Awesome, and I can't wait to see more, I'll discuss more with you over a PM , is that alright ^_^ I can share some more ideas.



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StinglessBee
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Of course it's alright! But... probibly not tonight. It's getting rather late here, and I need to get some sleep. I'll talk to you tomorrow :D .

PM me when ever you feel like it around then: I'm sure to pick it up (Mum may want me to do a few things, but I can guarantee that I'll be here tomorrow)
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 30 2009, 03:57 PM.
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Venatosaurus
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Well it's still early where I live, so I'll pm you and you can answer the message whenever ^_^



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StinglessBee
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Here are a few of Venatosaurus's ideas put into action:

Class: Lissamphibian
Order: aeriusamphibia
Family: capillatus (hairy slime birds)

These are a group of warm blooded and semi-warm blooded creatures. They are defined by having "fur", which is actually masses of skin extentions, used both to extend the surface area and as insulation. Due to this, they range farther north than other slime birds, with the most northerly species living on the Artic tundra, eating the masses of insects that swarm during the summer of the Artic. Unlike other species, this one and several other hairy slime birds migrate, often hitching rides on the sides on large migratory herbivores. Another defining feature of this group is that they grow larger than any other slime birds, resulting in highly specialised hairy slime birds that eat smaller slime birds. These predatory creatures have far more powerful jaw muscles, with stronger teeth designed for crushing the bones of their prey and tearing meat of their kills.

Class: Lissamphibian
Order: Ranatheropod (Yoshis, singular Yoshi)

These are another sister group to frogs, which evolved during the Triassic. They are bipedal, with a leg arrangement similar to theropod dinosaurs or to flightless birds. Whilst they share the powerful leg muscles of their frog relatives, they differ in having a fairly long tail (used as a balancing aid). Most modern species are also either warm blooded, or semi-warm blooded. In an example of convergant evolution, they have "hair" similar to that of hairy slime birds. This, combined with a reinforced spine (having a 3 vertibrae sacrum rather than the 2 vertbrae sacrum found in diadectomorphs and real life amniotes) allows them to reach truely large sizes, with the largest being camel sized. They have evolved into both carnivorous and herbivorous varieties, with several primitive varieties being in competition with their relatives, the frogs, for insects. An especially curious adaptation among many Yoshis is the use of a long tongue as a "crest" used to attract females. Yoshis live in South America and Australia (where they diversified due to lack of competition from leaping tadpoles and warrior toads of the northern hemisphere), with one or two species living in central and north America.

Oh, and I'm editing the knucker post. Making the nitrogen seeping somewhat more realistic (I've done some research, and found a method of doing it that is more plausible than what I have now). I think I'll also be doing a version 2 of that post shortly.
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Venatosaurus
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Cool ! I was actually going to suggest you have some frogs use their tongues for sexual attraction but it seems you beat me to the punch :P As for the yoshi evolving in the Triassic, I'm a bit iffy, because that is when anurans themselves began to evolve, unless they split early on in frog evolution...Oh and are they extinct ?



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StinglessBee
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I would have had them evolve at a different time, but I couldn't as frogs have a reduced tail, and I'm fairly certain that the therapod gait requires a long tail. And they are not extinct (though they are probably a rather depleted group which did well during the Cretacious but managed to survive K-10, a bit like Marsupials today)
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