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Amphibination; Part 3 now up
Topic Started: Aug 26 2009, 02:16 PM (6,328 Views)
StinglessBee
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This is an alternate world where amniotes never evolved. Meanwhile, the Permian extinction was more gradual, allowing the reptiliamorphs (amniote-like amphibians such as Seymouria and Diadectes) to survive. All other extinctions happened as normal. The way I see this world, there are three main orders: lissamphibians (which are more diverse than real world amphibians, but do not produce megafauna), mammaloraniformes (descendants of Seymouria group reptiliamorphs), and throat breeders (descendants of Diadectes group reptiliamorphs, which produce most of the megafauna).

The throat breeders are generally social creatures which nurse their young in modified vocal cords in a similar way to a Darwin’s frog.

The mammaloraniformes, meanwhile, will have an internal ear drum together with ear bones seperate from the skull, and will be fully warm blooded.

The lissamphibians won't be producing anything larger than a badger for two reasons: firstly, many of them breathe through their skin as well as through their lungs, resulting in them needing a large body surface to volume ratio and secondly because they lack the reinforced spine that amniotes and some reptiliamorphs have (come to think of it, badger size may be pushing the limit...)

Anyway, may I have critique, advice, or suggestions please. If anyone can think of a better name than those I've come up with, then please tell me. Also, for those who wish for pictures, they will come... eventually (don't expect master pieces: I am, at best, a dreadful artist).

Anyway, here is are a few orders and families to begin with:

Class: Throat breeder (sorry: I'm not good with latin or greek names)
Order: Scale rats

These are the creatures from which all other throat breeders evolve (as these were some of the survivors of the K-10 Cretacious extinction). Whilst they are origionally descended from the herbivorous Diadectamorphs, these are omnivorous creatures that grow up to the size of a fox. Whilst they are scaly (reptiliamorphs were) these scales are more comparable to those of a carp than to reptile scales. They communicate by a mixture of scent, body language and (in some species) colour changes, as the vocal cords are used to carry their young. These creatures fill rodent niches, and a few derived scale rats fill primitive primate niches.

Class: Mammaloraniformes
Order: Seal mimics (not an actual name, just a stand in until someone thinks of something better)

These are very basal members of the class, in which many members of the order haven't evolved vivipary. These are mostly marine, but several species swim upriver to lay their frog-like eggs. They and their larvae have pits in their head for sensing the electricity given of by muscles. Most species prey on fish and fill seal and sea lion niches. However, a family of whale like creatures exist (these have evolved vivipary). These fill the niche of humpback whales (eating small fish en mass) or grey whales (eating invertebrates from the sea bed en mass).

Class: Lissamphibian
Order: Anura
Family: Leaping tadpoles/rabbit frogs

These are frog-like creatures that maintain the coiled gut used in their tadpole stage to digest plant matter. These grow up to the size of a rabbit, and can be distinguished from other members of the frog/toad order by the more spherical body, which contains the larger digestive system. These (and several other families of frog) have abandoned the usual jumping ability in favour of a odd form of gallop, similar to that used by some crocodilians in real life. They have achieved most of their diversity in colder regions, as they can hibernate easily. Some even have a natural anti-freeze in their blood and muscles (some frogs do this in real life, so why not?)

Anyway, there is plenty more things to come. So... what do you think?
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 26 2009, 04:33 PM.
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StinglessBee
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No vertibrate has hard shells on it's eggs (which isn't actually as odd as it sounds: quite a few amphibians in the real world lay eggs on land despite having no hard shells). However, since that means that the shells are softer, it means that parental care is more common.

Oh, and here are the slime birds (mentioned earlier in the post):

Class: lissamphibian
Order: aeriusamphia

These are a sister group to frogs. While it had gliding forms in the Triassic, it only evolved flying forms in the mid Jurrasic. The modern slime bird has four bat-like wings, which are formed by fingers (2 in the front wings, 3 in the rear wings) that have elongated and now have membranes between them. The remaining 2 fingers in each hand have discs similar to those found on tree frogs, with which it uses to climb trees. It is notable that, whilst the membrane of the front wings connects to the body, the membrane of the rear wings doesn't. This is because it the slime bird requires those legs in order to provide a leaping take of, and taking of with the rear wings connected would result, at best, in a poor take of and at worst the membrane being ripped. These creatures are mostly insect eaters that fill the niche of swallows, using their sight to catch flying insects in midair. Unlike their avian counterparts, instead of migrating south they hibernate. There larvae are tadpole like filter feeders, and when ever possible their parents lay in tree holes or in bromeliads, though they will lay their eggs in ponds. Slime birds are found in Europe and Asia, with a patchy distribution in the Americas.

Any good? I do have a sketch which I hope to scan up tommorrow if possible (I'll have to ask my mum though...) which will show what I have written about the wing structure better.
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 28 2009, 08:30 AM.
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ATEK Azul
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Those sound very neat I like them along with the rest of this world all of it is great quality and enjoyable.

I have some questions about the flying ones though 1: how do their wing muscles attach to the body and 2: do these have any modifications to breathing systems and/or lighter bones?
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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StinglessBee
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For your first question ATEK, well... I'm not really sure. I think that the front wings will (as well as having limited muscles in the limbs) be mostly powered by muscles in the back and shoulder, whereas the rear wings will mostly be powered by the leg muscles themselves (due to the limited webbing on the rear wings, I can't see them being the primary flight mechanism). I'm really unsure on it though, and if you have a better idea, then please tell me.

As for your second question, I think that they'll have lighter bones (I'm fairly sure that lissamphibian bones are light anyway) but I don't think they'll have much need for an enhanced breathing system: they breath through their skin as well as using their lungs, so I think that they'll be able to get as much oxygen as they need (I can't see them growing to the size at which they'll desperately need it).
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Giant Blue Anteater
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Venatosaurus
Aug 27 2009, 11:07 AM
I dislike amphibians, because most give me the creeps
Oh come on, frogs are cuuuuuuute!

Posted Image

Don't tell me you don't want to hug this guy!

But anyway, this project sounds interesting, although you must take into account that basal tetrapods like Ichthyostega may have kept their fishy scales but were lost in more amphibian-y creatures, including true amphibians as we know it (lissamphibians). Seymouria may have had scales just like reptiles have, but they still reproduced in the water.
Edited by Giant Blue Anteater, Aug 28 2009, 03:15 PM.
Ichthyostega

Posted Image

cdk007
 
Intelligence is awareness of ignorance. Stupidity is ignorance of ignorance. Think about it.
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Venatosaurus
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Are there any other clades that developed flight other than the Slime Birds ?

As for frogs, many are so cute, it's just the wet, slimy skin that detracts me from them :( But I used to have a male and female Green Tree Frogs, but the passed away several years ago, but I found them easy to maintain, I just struggled emptying the crickets into the cage, as they could jump ! XD
Edited by Venatosaurus, Aug 28 2009, 03:17 PM.



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StinglessBee
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Quote:
 
Oh come on, frogs are cuuuuuuute!

Agreed. I've actually had an idea for a short essay on an amphibination/real life cross-over, describing which species make the best pets and what the effects of finding a new dimension filled with creatures both cute and dangerous. I'm going to have to add a lot more than what I have before I even start writing it though.

Quote:
 
But anyway, this project sounds interesting, although you must take into account that basal tetrapods like Ichthyostega may have kept their fishy scales but were lost in more amphibian-y creatures, including true amphibians as we know it (lissamphibians). Seymouria may have had scales just like reptiles have, but they still reproduced in the water.

True, quite a few amphibians lost their scales, but the reptiliamorphs were closely related to reptiles and synapsids (I'm going with fish like scales because of earlier posts on different threads that said that synapsids may have retained fish-like scales). And quite a few creatures still do lay their eggs in water (for those that don't, well several species of amphibian lay their eggs on land, so I don't see why that shouldn't develop in their relatives, and they could always develop vivipary).

Quote:
 
Are there any other clades that developed flight other than the Slime Birds ?

There pretty much has to be more clades than just the slime birds, simply because they cannot possibly fill all the niches that are possible in aerial species (when I do get round to writing it up, it'll probibly be a mammaliranaform).
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 28 2009, 04:04 PM.
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Venatosaurus
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Yeah I was going to suggest you make a flighted mammaliranaform ;)



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StinglessBee
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As the phrase goes: great minds think alike :D
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 28 2009, 04:03 PM.
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Venatosaurus
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So true :P !



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StinglessBee
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Hi! Here is the slime bird picture (sorry it's not so good):
Slime bird pic.

And here is the write up of the squirtles:

Class: throat breeder
Order: oceaniformes
Suborder: pseudochelonian

The squirtles are a group of highly derived throat breeders with turtle-like heads, round bodies, flipper like limbs, and a long, flat tail. They feed almost entirely on coral and molluscs, and as a result can be found in tropical, sub-tropical, and temperate waters world wide. Like many other advanced throat breeder, they communicate with each other through colour changes.

Oceaniformes as a whole have several curious adaptions to living in salt water. Notably, their larvae and their eggs are resistant to salt water, and can be more compared to the eggs of some fish than real life lissamphibians. The adult males still use their vocal cords to nurse their eggs, however, upon hatching the larvae shoal around the father, eating scraps from his meals and parasites on his skin. Should the need arise, the father will signal for his young to swim back into his vocal sac.

If your wondering what the relatives of the squirtles I mentioned earlier are... you'll find out... tomorrow :evil:
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 29 2009, 12:46 PM.
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Venatosaurus
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YAY !! The Squirtles ! Oh and I faved the Slime Bird



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StinglessBee
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Thanks!
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Venatosaurus
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Now thinking about it, many of the animals you have as remaining quite primitive, can actually be more advanced in this world... For instance, while drawing my own take of the Slime Bird, I drew in patches of "hair" akin to the structures on the Hairy Frog, this provides warmth, as well as more surface area to take in oxygen. Now I've been thinking, since they are amphibians, they can take on a myriad of forms, especially lissamphibians, like this ,either temnospondyl or giant lissamphibian, that has reduced its limbs to small digits that aid in digging, these animals look like giant sausages and burrow into muddy banks, or abandoned burrows and will ambush any passing animals. I also thought of bipedal amphibians ,either descending from or being a sister group of frogs, that are warm blooded and reside in either SA or Oz... as for snakes, you can definately use dry skinned Caecillians ! Don't even get me started on what else I've thought of (hairy echidna-like mammalianaformes) , man I have major ADD, I was thinking about Dragons, then an alien planet, now I'm fixed on this...why do I feel myself wanting to collaborate !!!! XD

I think a lot of the groups mentioned can have strange, derived descendants, remember, you're re-writing the course of vertabrate evolution, so you can make these animals to be as alien as you want ! ^_^



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ATEK Azul
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I mostly agree with Venatosaurus exept about the part of making these as alien as you want becuase we are still using earth life which can be made alien just not as alien as you want.

Also the idea of hairy Frog skin projections those maight be a very important adaptation for your flyers.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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Venatosaurus
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When I said alien, I meant unlike creatures we've seen before with uinque and odd adaptations. Some amphibians are like today, some examples, Mudpuppies and Axotls ;)



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