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Amphibination; Part 3 now up
Topic Started: Aug 26 2009, 02:16 PM (6,320 Views)
StinglessBee
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This is an alternate world where amniotes never evolved. Meanwhile, the Permian extinction was more gradual, allowing the reptiliamorphs (amniote-like amphibians such as Seymouria and Diadectes) to survive. All other extinctions happened as normal. The way I see this world, there are three main orders: lissamphibians (which are more diverse than real world amphibians, but do not produce megafauna), mammaloraniformes (descendants of Seymouria group reptiliamorphs), and throat breeders (descendants of Diadectes group reptiliamorphs, which produce most of the megafauna).

The throat breeders are generally social creatures which nurse their young in modified vocal cords in a similar way to a Darwin’s frog.

The mammaloraniformes, meanwhile, will have an internal ear drum together with ear bones seperate from the skull, and will be fully warm blooded.

The lissamphibians won't be producing anything larger than a badger for two reasons: firstly, many of them breathe through their skin as well as through their lungs, resulting in them needing a large body surface to volume ratio and secondly because they lack the reinforced spine that amniotes and some reptiliamorphs have (come to think of it, badger size may be pushing the limit...)

Anyway, may I have critique, advice, or suggestions please. If anyone can think of a better name than those I've come up with, then please tell me. Also, for those who wish for pictures, they will come... eventually (don't expect master pieces: I am, at best, a dreadful artist).

Anyway, here is are a few orders and families to begin with:

Class: Throat breeder (sorry: I'm not good with latin or greek names)
Order: Scale rats

These are the creatures from which all other throat breeders evolve (as these were some of the survivors of the K-10 Cretacious extinction). Whilst they are origionally descended from the herbivorous Diadectamorphs, these are omnivorous creatures that grow up to the size of a fox. Whilst they are scaly (reptiliamorphs were) these scales are more comparable to those of a carp than to reptile scales. They communicate by a mixture of scent, body language and (in some species) colour changes, as the vocal cords are used to carry their young. These creatures fill rodent niches, and a few derived scale rats fill primitive primate niches.

Class: Mammaloraniformes
Order: Seal mimics (not an actual name, just a stand in until someone thinks of something better)

These are very basal members of the class, in which many members of the order haven't evolved vivipary. These are mostly marine, but several species swim upriver to lay their frog-like eggs. They and their larvae have pits in their head for sensing the electricity given of by muscles. Most species prey on fish and fill seal and sea lion niches. However, a family of whale like creatures exist (these have evolved vivipary). These fill the niche of humpback whales (eating small fish en mass) or grey whales (eating invertebrates from the sea bed en mass).

Class: Lissamphibian
Order: Anura
Family: Leaping tadpoles/rabbit frogs

These are frog-like creatures that maintain the coiled gut used in their tadpole stage to digest plant matter. These grow up to the size of a rabbit, and can be distinguished from other members of the frog/toad order by the more spherical body, which contains the larger digestive system. These (and several other families of frog) have abandoned the usual jumping ability in favour of a odd form of gallop, similar to that used by some crocodilians in real life. They have achieved most of their diversity in colder regions, as they can hibernate easily. Some even have a natural anti-freeze in their blood and muscles (some frogs do this in real life, so why not?)

Anyway, there is plenty more things to come. So... what do you think?
Edited by StinglessBee, Aug 26 2009, 04:33 PM.
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StinglessBee
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It certainly will! Come to think of it, I'll have to start drawing a few maps of the larger island chains.
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Venatosaurus
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I know ! I hope Kay will provide us with some as well, she never responded to me about the change. I think we should keep this topic up for a while, and once we have more information, we'll start up a revised topic !



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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Can't wait to see it.

So is the oxygen content higher in this new world or something? And how about the molting problem? How is that solved?

Maybe they could lie dormant underground while they grow. Then, when they reach full adult size (when they don't need to molt any more), they emerge from the ground and take flight. Sort of an underground metamorphosis.
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StinglessBee
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The oxygen content will be higher in this world, as it is also required for truly large lissamphibians as well as giant bugs. By the way Canis, I think you may have just solved the molting problem for us, in a few bugs at least.
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Venatosaurus
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Yes the O2 is a bit higher here, and thus allows the for the existance of large insects and more efficient breathing mechanisms for the amphibians ;) As for the molting issue, since Nemo suggested such a thing we emailed him to clarify such things but he has yet to respond, but I do like the idea of the animal reaching a point where it no longer had to molt
Edit: Whoops took too long to post so my post it pretty much exactly like Stings xD
Edited by Venatosaurus, Sep 13 2009, 01:55 PM.



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seascorpion
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Why Can't I Hold All These Mongols?

im trying to come up with a scientific name of that large predatory fish i thought of, any suggestions?
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The Dodo
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Try looking up some words on a Latin or Greek Translator or dictonary.
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Nemo Ramjet
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I don't think that oxygen levels are the reason why some animals like carboniferous dragonflies got as large as they did. I think the biggest reason is, well, animals get large because they can. For the Pteranodon-sized dragonflies I proposed for in this world, mere structural adaptations like a lightweight honeycombed exoskeleton, "turbo" trachea which have developed into lung analogues, and an aquatic molting habit seem to be all that's necessary. I predict these "griffinflies" to look a bit like emaciated coconut crabs with wings that look like surf sails. There are only two "flying" wings, the other two work as a tail analogue.
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Iowanic
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'Got big because they can..'

And one reason why they did so was because there was enough oxogen to make it possible.

Your 'modifications' therein are very interesting, though.

Correct me if I'm missing something(I haven't read all 10 pages) but I'm assuming the rate of reproduction of these creatures would be rather less then insects currently?

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StinglessBee
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Not neccesarily. Their young could be vulnerable to predators such as large diving beetles, predatory lung fish, fresh water sharks and large amphibians. Most of the larvae could die before they get out of the water.
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Carlos
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Why the hell no one is amazed that Nemo Ramjet, the author of Snaiad and one of the most admired in our community, is contributing and just made an appearence beats me
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

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https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Rick Raptor
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I´m amazed. So amazed I couldn´t post :")


What would be the largest aerial predator in this world? The giant "griffinfly" or a giant flying amphibian?
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StinglessBee
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Quote:
 
Why the hell no one is amazed that Nemo Ramjet, the author of Snaiad and one of the most admired in our community, is contributing and just made an appearence beats me

I am, I'm just trying not to sound like a fan girl. It tends to put people off. Anyway, I'm glad to have pretty much all the geniuses of speculative biology contributing. And I'm glad to have you all contributing.

But moving past me being sentimental, I would have thought that higher oxygen levels may be a good idea, as the vast majority of lissamphibians breath through their skin, and adaptations such as hair-like skin extentions and wrinkles can only help the amphibian to a limited extent. They would have to be a rather major size limitation on them. We could make the largest species dry skinned, but... somehow doing that makes them a bit less like people think of amphibians today.

Oh, and I expect that the largest flying predator would be... you know what, I don't know, I expect that griffonflies would be among the largest flyers, but I doubt that they are the largest.
Edited by StinglessBee, Sep 14 2009, 02:25 PM.
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Venatosaurus
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Wow Nemo posted ! Cool, anyway, those adaptations work wonderfully. As for oxygen levels, I'd expect them to be slightly higher than todays, due to the high sea levels. Though I still have some trouble envisioning these Griffinflies, Nemo helped me a bit ^_^



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Iowanic
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Sorry if I sounded like a smarty-pants, Nemo. :")

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