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Applying Terran Anatomical Trends on Alien Life; Shows great lack of imagination.
Topic Started: Apr 29 2009, 05:04 PM (1,910 Views)
Giant Blue Anteater
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I find it annoying how some people say that, because how how splendid anatomical inventions as well as their configurations are on Earth, they apply those principles on alien life; any creature not following Terran anatomical trends is preposterous and unplausible. Basically, they say that because of how successful Earth anatomy, life will universally follow this model.

Firstly, how do you know? Scientifically, we do not really know what alien life looks like, but it is most likely going to be different. There are many factors that affect the evolution of life, even on this world, such as geological configurations, atmospheric composition, gravity, mass extinctions, and other factors. Also, imagine different paths evolution can take. While that is not to say that there will not be many similarities to Earth life due to convergent evolution, that dosen't mean that life out there will anatomically replicate Earth life.
Edited by Giant Blue Anteater, Apr 29 2009, 08:18 PM.
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ATEK Azul
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i agree with this thanks for posting maybe alot of these how aliens could be different from us topics should be fused into one.
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Yeah it is annoying. Aliens are alien. They're supposed to be different. Basic definition of an alien.

However, I don't find it crazy for analogues to evolve. Multiple phylums, classes, orders, etc. have evolved similar structures. Pterosaurs, birds, insects, and bats all have wings that perform the same function and look similar. It is no great leap of faith to say that aliens will also evolve wings.
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Giant Blue Anteater
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Of course, analogues will evolve, although it is slightly flawed to compare a fututoriform with a jaguar in some ways, it is still a reasonable comparison.

To me, it is arrogant to think that, because Earthly anatomy works well, life elsewhere will follow this exact same line of evolution, not matter the planet's conditions. Imagine being part of a blind species. You hear "This alien animal dosen't use sonar like we do. It uses something completely alien. It uses hollow balls filled with fluid that uses an unknown energy to create unimaginable images with." The skeptic would think "Oh psh. Life on our planet never evolved such organs. Life works perfectly with our sonar booms and four-jawed mouths and our six limbs. Life will follow this model universally."

As you can see, the wierd being did not use his imagination very well. He is using only what he knows, and is applying those principles to other worlds. Just imagine, there is a world who's cheif terrestrial animals have four limbs, two jaws originating from bony arches rather than cutting scales attached to strong muscles, and having those hollow bulbs that recieve the unknown energy.
Edited by Giant Blue Anteater, Apr 29 2009, 08:21 PM.
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i agree with these statements and hope there will be a sci-fi revolution soon with more beleavable aliens.

and what did you all think about my fusing the alien difference topics together i think its a good idea personaly.

and what about other materials for simular structures i mean life might not use or make the exact same structures as ours, they could have silicon based protean structures fore bones instead of calcium stuff.

there is endless differences that could arise depending on the materials the planet has.

they might have a methane or hydrogen rich atmosphere which makes jet propulsion easy for them. or they could all have 4 vertebrae collums and ten limbs (6 legs and 4 arms in a doc oct fashion).
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Giant Blue Anteater
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Where would that topic be? Please provide a link.

Here I am referring to the strange anatomy of extraterrestrial life that these supporters of Earth-like life object to.
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cdk007
 
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ATEK Azul
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it dosen't exist yet i was proposing that some one make it.

it was just an idea nothing that had too be done.
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Giant Blue Anteater
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Well, I think this thread is fine on its own for now, until I change my judgments if I see your thread.

Considering the different alternative paths life could taken (no matter the cause), I would not rule out a creature like a terrestrial opabinid or a shark-like anomalocarid as impossible. Neither would I rule out something like a two-'headed' creature with a tongue-like proboscis because its anatomical trends are different from what we know so far. This is an alien planet, not Earth.

Saying that life will follow how Earth animals evolved is like looking at animals like elephants and rhinoceri and since they don't have as much covering as a mouse, you jump to the conclusion that maniraptorans like Utahraptor and Austroraptor were naked beasts as well, when in fact feathers do a lot better job regulating temperature than fur, and since the two are both maniraptorans, they doubtlessly had feathers.

Come on, I would like to hear a comment from the rest of the community other than the two that responded.
Edited by Giant Blue Anteater, May 1 2009, 10:05 PM.
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If you wish to see what I am talking about, visit Darren Naish's post about Snaiad: http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2009/04/alien_para-tetrapods_of_snaiad.php#comments and look at the comments.

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I'm tired of debating this, and I don't believe I need a "refresher" on natural selection, or the other two basic mechanisms of evolution, drift and mutation. And no need to lecture on mass extinctions. But I would just like to say that far from being free from biased assumptions about how evolution works or free of earth-centric bias, assuming that life will randomly take on the most intentionally bizarre forms imaginable DOES make assumptions about how evolution works and how 'limited' evolution was on our own planet. For one thing, it views evolutionary innovation as "cheap"-not costly in terms of special conditions it takes to evolve new forms, or in the rareness of truly novel basic structural innovations, of which there are dozens among the snaidi (look at one of those phylogeny sketches..)
I also disagree with the implied notion that the course evolution took was nothing more than whoever didn't have a chair when the music stopped- that organismal variation is essentially neutral in the long term and differential survival and radiation of major groups on Earth is nothing more than random chance (essentially, drift at the bauplan level)...and thus we can expect something as bizarre and variable as Snaiad on another planet. Snaiad has it right in emphasizing the importance of historical contingency in influencing the subsequent form of evolution but I feel it fetishizes this concept and forgets that some forms are unlikely to evolve (innovation at that extreme level is rare) or are simply not liable to radiate into certain niches, even if the top dog in that niche is knocked off due to extinction. I digress...but anyway I just think the null hypothesis that evolution may have had reasons for following the broad-sense path it did (aside from mass extinctions) should not and can not be dismissed as mere earth chauvinism.

So what should we call this? An actual valid argument of enlightenment or total bunk induced by lack of imagination and the unwillingness to appreciate a different idea?
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ATEK Azul
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it might just be me but i am having a hard time understanding that quote so i can't give a good answere sorry.
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It would be a valid argument, except that it forgets that one simple thing: Snaiad is supposed to be novel. He even mentions that he was trying to show how random chance plays a major role in evolution.

But, from a pure scientific view, I think it's pretty reasonable.
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Empyreon
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Are you plausible?

I agree with everyone that while there are forms that facilitate certain activities, that doesn't mean that life inherently takes those forms, especially on a planet appreciably different from Earth.

I'm no scientist by any stretch of the imagination, but I have an interest in these kinds of things. I can't claim an expert understanding of natural selection, drift, or mutation, but it seems common sense to me that just because there are many varied and effective forms evolved that not every evolution necessarily evolves toward some efficient, ideal end.

Though I may not be a true scientist (as I mentioned before) there is one thing I've learned from science: by its very nature, science is incomplete. We understand the mechanisms of our universe based on our discoveries, and over time those discoveries are confirmed through further experimentation. But all it takes is one persistent anomaly to take that widely accepted theory and turn it on its head. Thus, to accept any experimental discovery as universal fact is, well, unscientific. Have confidence in time-tested results, but never adhere to them as definitive, irrefutable truth.

This comment that Giant Blue Anteater quoted seems, according to how I read it (please correct me if I'm wrong), in such a closed-minded state. My vote is for "unwillingness to appreciate a different idea" more than anything else.

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...assuming that life will randomly take on the most intentionally bizarre forms imaginable DOES make assumptions about how evolution works and how 'limited' evolution was on our own planet.


This is one specific point from the quoted comment I wanted to reply to. In the first place, I believe that the forms represented are not the most intentionally bizarre possible, even on Snaiad. Unless you've really messed around with Spore, or similarly exerted your imagination, you don't know the meaning of 'intentionally bizarre.'

Secondly, as with any case of speculative biology, 'random' is not the word to use. These creatures, in the strictest sense of the word, are created, not evolved. Despite best efforts to synthesize chance selection, or random genetic drift, inevitable choices are made by the creator to meet specific predetermined criteria. I've yet to see a speculative biology project that I couldn't spot a preferred aesthetic theme or some niche to which the creator wants to fit their creation, and in my opinion certain assumptions must be made. There's nothing wrong with seeing examples of a speculator's wildest imaginations, and Nemo Ramjet's Snaiad is a great example of some well thought out and artfully executed work.
Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus!

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food for thought
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ATEK Azul
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I agree with the above comment though i have not thought of it that way i agree. every project has preditermined results based on the creator(s) and what ever the starting point of the project. And random definately should not be used in this form of fiction.
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Some terran traits can be applied to alien life, though. For example, an alien creature is likely to have some sort of organization in its body like cells, although the composition of these cells are likely to be different ( silicon, arsenic, etc.). Alien organisms are also highly likely to have an organ or organs to manipulate their enviroment such as a limb. We can also guess that these organisms are likely to have senses since this is almost required in order to survive. Other than that organisms are likely to be very different, but they may be similar in some ways.
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Giant Blue Anteater
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Empyreon, if you want a full idea, read the comments on on Darren Naish's post about Snaiad.

Even though Snaiadi is fictional is only a concept, it still is scientifically sound, and the organisms are very plausible. Honestly, I think Nemo Ramjet knows what he is doing here. Even though a speculative biology project may not be 100% accurate, no matter how hard the creators try, Nemo is simply that close!

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Some terran traits can be applied to alien life, though. For example, an alien creature is likely to have some sort of organization in its body like cells, although the composition of these cells are likely to be different ( silicon, arsenic, etc.). Alien organisms are also highly likely to have an organ or organs to manipulate their enviroment such as a limb. We can also guess that these organisms are likely to have senses since this is almost required in order to survive. Other than that organisms are likely to be very different, but they may be similar in some ways.


My point exactly. While I'm not telling people to be "out there", many things affect the evolution of life, and the fact that evolution itself is random. Our jaws formed by the modification of gill arches. Think of another way of how a complex mouth can form. If the creature was covered with scales attached to muscles, the scales around the mouth might transform into cutting teeth-like integuments that allow the creature to bite into new sorts of things other than what it sucked into its mouth. Or how about a creature who has a mouth with two tooth-covered tentacles, that eventually stregnthen into true jaws as the teeth's roots become essentially a jawbone. Lots of possibilities.
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cdk007
 
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