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Jawless Land Vertebrates; An alternative to vertabrate jaws.
Topic Started: Jan 24 2009, 07:08 PM (3,822 Views)
Toad of Spades
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What if some jawless fish adapted to land life and evolved an alternative to jaws? What practical alternatives to jaws can you think of, and if they radiated into niches comparable to our land vertebrates what would be some of the major differences be?
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ATEK Azul
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hi i am becoming active again becouse people like you are coming up with great ideas that i would like too come into fruitation, like this idea.

i think that probuscus are a possible alternative. another would be animals with claws in order too cruch and shred food instead of chewing and a better digestive system.
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Carlos
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Probably jawless vertebrates could use strong enzymes rather than jaws
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

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ATEK Azul
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that would make sense. or maybe the creatures could cook the food in there mouths with steam or fire breathing in order too make it easyer too digest.
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Viergacht
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How about something like a reinforced tongue, or a ring of tooth-studded mounted on a tongue-like structure that shoots out (sort of like a chameleon tongue)? There could be predators that grab small prey, take cookie-cutter chunks out of big prey, or which have developed the teeth for stabbing (to either kill by stabbing or like a hypodermic to suck out blood). For plant eaters, they could grab bunches of vegetation or fruit, and as the tongue is retractred into the mouth the denticles lining it would mash it up. I think I might have to draw this to explain it properly. Words fail.

For enzymes, the could be spit on prey, on injected. Another alternative would be to have a "mouth" that opens directly into the abdomen. Instead of grazing, say, a herbivore analog would settle down on top of grass and appear to be doing nothing, while the stomach is protruding from the false mouth & doing its stuff.

Another thought would be a cluster of tiny arms or very strong tentacles clustered around the mouth that tear the food into bits and shove the bits into the throat, something like crustaceans have.
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Carlos
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Indeed, those would be some quite interesting mouths
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Sliver Slave
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I'm going back to basics.

I beleive spiralfish came up with such a concept.
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Viergacht
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Yeah, it's nothing very original.
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ATEK Azul
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maybe a vertebrate probuscus would evolve. or maybe they would evolve a tail pincer that chops and injects food which would be put into the jawless mouth pouch where enzimes and bacteria break it down and the tongue coulld move the goo after digestion too the stomuch.
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colddigger
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well, the jawless fish were mainly filter feeders right? or at least ate prey much much smaller than their own bodies...

I would imagine that such an animal wouldn't rise to become the dominant form of life in a world that was previously controlled by massive, armored, death machines... but if we were to force them to the top i figure a very likely way of consuming their food is swallowing it whole. they would probably develop a pouch for either grinding the plant or animal bodies into a paste, or have a series of acid filled organs for 'melting' them. To get the plants they can just engulf them with a huge cone mouth or something. The animal prey would be a little more difficult though, maybe cover it with a sac that is coughed up and suffocate the prey under or in it before swallowing...

the proboscis idea is realistic, except eating plants would become difficult as all they would have to do is change their leaves and stems into something thin, dry, and brittle... animal prey would become very tough and smooth so that the proboscises would slide over them. Mollusks might become more successful because they could have super thick slime coats to stop the mouth parts in... i dunno... the stabbing mouth part idea seems very Expeditiony to me...
Edited by colddigger, Mar 1 2009, 05:26 PM.
Oh Fine.

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Carlos
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Quote:
 
well, the jawless fish were mainly filter feeders right? or at least ate prey much much smaller than their own bodies...


Say that to lampreys and hagfish
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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colddigger
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JohnFaa
Mar 1 2009, 05:22 PM
Quote:
 
well, the jawless fish were mainly filter feeders right? or at least ate prey much much smaller than their own bodies...


Say that to lampreys and hagfish
well yeah, i didn't realize we were talking about the ring toothed fishes also... i though the topic were those ancient armored jawless fish... whatever they're called...
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ashwinder
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Wow, some great ideas coming up on these boards!
I was thinking some kind of tubular snout/proboscis. Here is a Pangolin snout which kind of demonstrates this:
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I would guess that such creatures would have to use a long flexible tongue to feed and would mainly feed of small inverterbates. I presume that herbivores could use a rasping tongue to feed on algae. The tongue could evolve into a number of novel forms, for example through secreting poison and acting like a dart or through fanning out to be used by filter feeders. I'm excited now... might do some doodles!
Edited by ashwinder, Mar 5 2009, 01:44 PM.
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ashwinder
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(double post)


Edited by ashwinder, Mar 6 2009, 02:00 PM.
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ashwinder
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I did a few doodles last night whilst watching a programme about Darwin and I thought I'd post them (despite them all looking a little bit like cyborg anteaters!)

The first image was just a preliminary doodle of a land-based jawless vertebrate which uses a long sticky tongue to feed and secrets a poisonous sticky solution similar to that made by the jawless hagfish.

The next doodle was a larger arboreal form that feeds of arthropods using a barb tipped tongue, somewhere between a chameleon and a dartfish.

I also drew a few filter-feeding species and a basic cladogram which I might post.

(Edit: Apologies for the many posts, the last one was accidental and I can't seem to be able to delete it!)


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Attachments: DSC01276.jpg (1.2 MB)
Attachments: DSC01277.jpg (1.35 MB)
Edited by ashwinder, Mar 6 2009, 02:18 PM.
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