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Life in the Vacuum of Space; Complex life living in space
Topic Started: Jan 16 2009, 04:51 PM (2,686 Views)
Toad of Spades
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Clorothod
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Is there any plausible way that complex life comparable to multi-cellular life could exist in the vaccum of space. The number one problem I can think of is temperature, but once it gets past that there are other hurdles like obtaining enough energy to fuel such life. As for origins, I'm not sure whether they would start out in space or move there.

Any thoughts?
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Genesis
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Jets and bursts only work if there's something to press against. Air, for example. That's the main problem with interplanetary flight.
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CarrionTrooper
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well then, what do they use in high-orbit satellites to autocorrect themselves? are there still enough air up there to push against? It's like firing a gun in space, you still get propelled backward. I imagine a quantity of heavy liquid being burst as a method of last-chance maneuvers.
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Rodge the Linkbot
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Genesis
Mar 10 2009, 06:02 PM
Jets and bursts only work if there's something to press against. Air, for example. That's the main problem with interplanetary flight.
That's not completely true. You still move, since it is an action and every action has an opposite but equal reaction. Think about rockets in space maneuvering, they do still use small bursts of thrust to change direction. Or maybe they are pushing against something, like the sparce molecules of hydrogen floating around. Either way it's enough to move the organisms.
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Sorry to revive a quiet topic, but I've thought of this a few time myself.

Anyways, you don't need to push against something to move in space you're having an explosion push against you basically.


Anywho my idea was that a creature would first develop a method of rocket propulsion, like the aerial predators in the show Alien Planet, and lived on a planet with lighter gravity but a much thicker atmosphere. So gradually they evolve into larger, higher flying species until they are routinely flying to the edge of the atmosphere, since they could travel to other parts of the planet quicker and reach other food sources. In doing so they would have to adapt to a near vacuum, so a thick strong skin that keeps the body under pressure and a way to seal all their different orifces.

So that gets us up to the edge of space, but to truly get outside of the planets gravity well they have to have something to breath, I am basing this off an oxygen breathing creature, so algae could become symbiotic with the creatures and live in the skin on their back turning waste products in the blood into something useable again.

At this point this creature could now colonize space itself if it can figure out a way to use comets and asteroids to get the raw materials for life and not need to return to planets for food anymore.
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Ànraich
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Perhaps it gathers its energy from the temperature, as well as hydrogen and helium gas naturally present in nebulae (which are also rich in organic material.
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Maybe, I was thinking that they would eat space debris chunks at a time, using their own body heat to warm and melt the ice and release the volatiles so that they can be used in the body. Hydrogen would be huge, probably as a large part in the propellant that it uses move around. Carbon, nitrogen, all the basic building blocks of life are out there for it to use for sure.
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Ànraich
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Also, this has been annoying me. It's vacuum, not vaccum. Sorry, I'm just going to change that.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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T.Neo
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Most of space is very empty, even in nebulae or asteroid/comet fields. The regions of space with the most "stuff" that could be potentially consumed are planetary rings like those of Saturn.

Also, manoeuvring in space isn't like in Star Wars, as there are real physics at play. Most of the time craft (or in this case organisms) just coast along in an orbit around another body, and only use propulsion when they need to alter that orbit. Small rockets are also needed to change attitude.

Overall rocket propulsion is quite inefficient, probably more so if utilized biologically. Certain space probes have altered the orientation of their solar panels to change attitude via solar radiation pressure, or used spinning momentum wheels.
Solar sails would probably be the best bet for long-range transport, following very low energy interplanetary trajectories that last years- any organism doing so would have to have the ability to shut down for long periods of time.
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Ànraich
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Either that or they have naturally low metabolisms to deal with the harsh environment, long travel periods, and scarcity of food sources. They would either have long periods of hibernation or incredibly long lifespans and live at a slow rate.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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Aug 6 2009, 10:38 PM
Perhaps it gathers its energy from the temperature, as well as hydrogen and helium gas naturally present in nebulae (which are also rich in organic material.
No, I'm pretty sure that would allow you to break entropy.

Anyway, we don't really need rockets or solar sails, there was recent discovery (I guess you could call it that) involving the mathematic model for E-MC2 and space-time.

Basically, you can move through space by moving your center of gravity, and falling into it. Imagine the letter Y floating in space. Now, imagine each limb stretching out, and then contracting, if done in a way that the top two move further out then bottom then it will fall forward, if reversed, it will fall backward.

NOTE: this only works in area where space-time is significantly bent, and a strong gravitation field will hold you in place. It would probably be a small area around a celestial body (planets, stars, singularities, etc) or an area of weird space (a texture, for example) to work.
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If we're talking about cisstellar space (is that correct? As in the space around a star) then perhaps solar sails could work, with the creature being able to extend and retract them. If the muscles responsible for the extension/retraction of the sail are hydraulic, then thermal expansion/contraction could act as a safety system: When the creature is absorbing less radiation, it cools, and the sails contract (also allowing it to retain a bit of heat, provided it's endothermic) while if it falls to close, it unfurls and gets more thrust.

I remember reading that a reflective solar sail (which, according to what I read, provided 2x the thrust of a non-reflective sail) requires an area of 25 m^2 to provide 1kg of thrust using a G2 type star (like the sun.) The inverse square law means that it provides this much thrust regardless of distance from the star. So, a photosynthetic sail of 50 m^2 would hold it in place. Any more than that, and it provides a positive net thrust.

Now, lets consider a large, simple life form. Imagine something like a giant, green fried egg (as in one that's been broken.) The "white" is a photosynthetic sail, made of a lightweight, tough material. The yolk is a "nucleus" of sorts, made of a semi-permeable layer over the same material as the sail. The semi-permeable layer collects the particles from solar wind and micrometeors, which are digested for minerals and energy. The minerals would probably be used primarily in reproduction.

The interior of the nucleus contains a simple system of bladders that allow it to fold its sail up into a comet-like tail. It might eventually evolve a brain of sorts to fold up part of its sail to avoid coronal mass ejections and the like. Some might evolve predatory behaviors to supplement the extremely slow influx of micrometeoroids.
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Are you plausible?

This might be a little too out there, but what about some sort of magnetic/gravity manipulation? Could a creature maneuver themselves close to a celestial object (asteroid for example), then reach out and 'grab' it to pull themselves closer or push themselves away?
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food for thought
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T.Neo
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This might be a little too out there, but what about some sort of magnetic/gravity manipulation?


Gravity manipulation remains in the realm of science fiction, for now at least.

If practical gravity manipulation is indeed possible, I would see an organism evolving it to be akin to an animal evolving wheels or rotor blades...
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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Are you plausible?

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Gravity manipulation remains in the realm of science fiction, for now at least.


Last I saw, so is self-sustaining life in the vacuum of space... ;)
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food for thought
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The European Space Agency, a couple years ago, actually launched a spacecraft containing dozens of water bears. The water bears survived not only the vaccuum of space, but lso the heat of reentry, proving it's entirely possible for life-and multicellular life at that- to survive in the vaccuum of space.
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