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Survivor: Millennials vs. Gen X; Season 33
Topic Started: Aug 19 2016, 06:00 PM (1,267 Views)
blosslover
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BROD hurrah!!!!!!!
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Dax
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Two good tribals... second one was crazy fun..

The crawling-on-their-bellies relay race amused me.
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bilki
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Poor Jessica! That was a rough couple of days for her. She had a terrible time on the snake course, then she drew the black rock! I still feel bad for her. I wonder how long she was upset with herself for not just voting off Hannah after the first tie.

Oh, I should go watch her Ponderosa video...
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KMInfinity
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Yeah it was crazy fun, but Jeff is wrong. Drawing rocks isn't the ultimate "all-in" it's the ultimate sign of a cast that is terrible at gameplay. Massive rookie mistakes make for exciting tribals and wild storytelling, which is all good from the TV viewing POV, but the best players are like Kim Spradlin, who win without drama.
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KMInfinity
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A fun list...

http://insidesurvivor.com/best-of-the-best-ranking-the-survivor-winners-fall-2015-6486
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KMInfinity
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I thought this was a good post (from Maddog03) showing the traditional edgic analysis of the remaining castaways, and why so many still think Ken wins.

I dunno.

I'll follow up with a defense of David's very odd editing as the first winner with a) a journey edit b) blatant contradictions shown of his gameplay - most recently - being shown, and not shielded, from being wrong about the Hannah/Ken idol use.

Quote:
 
... Ken hasn't gotten any edit content that a winner would NOT have gotten. Like everything is consistent with a winner's edit. The only thing that takes away from Ken being the winner is absence, lack... but everything Ken HAS received has been winner-esque.

In fact, Ken is the only person in the game that has gotten winner content that 100% a winner would get. Nothing about Ken's edit do we say, "Oh they wouldn't have shown Ken saying x, y, z if he were the winner. But all other 8 contestants have said things winners wouldn't say.

Adam -- too much to count from the past 2 or 3 episodes.

"I wake up in the middle of the night and I see Taylor sneaking some food, so I decided it's an opportunity to build trust with him...if I can convince him to vote my way, then I've got control of this game." (33x07) Adam would have not said this and then subsequently failed to build trust with him. The editors would have manipulated it in a non-damaging way.

Adam wouldn't have said the folliowing at the merge if he won."I made the merge... this is the point of the game where alliances and loyalties are really tested, and the really great players get separated from the mediocre players. And I hope that I'm in the former group." (33x07) He says this and then the rest of the episode discredits Adam as not being in the "former group".

Bret

"I believe David has an idol, even though he claims he does not, and that makes me very nervous." (33x01) Bret wouldn't be shown saying this if he won. He says he believes David has an idol and yet David doesn't. The editors would never show the winner having an incorrect read like that in episode 1.

David

Too much visibility in the first 5 episodes (Not impossible but no winner has ever had that much visibility at the beginning ofthe game for that long without a break)

"I’m at the mercy of my tribemates." (33x01) wasn't a great confessional to have in episode 1.

David probably wouldn't have said this if he won: "I feel so guilty saying this, and I’m glad Paul didn’t have a heart attack, but honestly, when he-- when he went down, I thought, 'This might be a good thing for me.'" (33x02)

David wouldn't have said this probably if he won: "I played an idol tonight, but I don’t know that playing that idol was the right move because I saved someone who nobody really wants to work with, and now I don’t have an idol, and I’m incredibly vulnerable." (33x05) Why would the editors show David showing this side of regret if he won?

Hannah

"When you look at the group, I started noticing that there really has been this sort of division between, like, the high school cool kids and the sort of weirdo nerds. Cool kids versus misfits and I do feel like the misfits seem like they’re going to be on the outs. So I need now to squash that in the bud." Hannah probably wouldn't have said this if she won and then subsequently in the next epsiode voted with the "cool kids" against a misfit Mari.

Jay

"Figgy’s going home. And it sucks because I had Figgy and Taylor in the trifecta, okay? And we were gonna make things happen. Unless something happens and things go crazy, which they usually do, my alliance is gone." (33x02) Jay probably wouldn't have said this if he won. This confessional showed that Jay was not in control of his game at this point. Michelle had to pop out of the clouds to wake Jay back up and realize a game was going on. And she's already out. So that's a terrible sign.

Jay wouldn't have been shown failing at making fire if he won. "So we wake up this morning. We don’t have a fire yet, and I’m starving and I’m thirsty. I’m trying to use this flint. I’m exhausted. I’m trying. I’m trying. It just does not work for me and I don’t understand why. And I’m just losing all hope and I’m like, 'You know what? Forget this.'" (33x05​

Jay wouldn't have said this in the merge episode if he won: "But then I also got in my pocket... Will and Hannah, and I'm pretty sure Bret and Sunday... I'm the kingpin, but no one knows, and I want to keep it that way" (33x08). Tribal Council in that episode showed that Jay is definitely NOT the kingpin. Michelle was voted out, and Jay came to realize he was on the outs.

Jay probably wouldn't have been shown making a personal remark about Adam, calling him an "asshole" if Jay won.

Sunday

Sunday wouln't have been shown saying: "I went to the well with Chris and Bret. We basically talked about sticking to our alliance of six. So what we have on the docket for tonight is to vote out CeCe. Voting CeCe out to keep the tribe strong is a good thing to do. She has not done well in challenges. I can’t argue it at all" (33x03). She says this.and then she subsequently votes Paul out. This confessional was completely unnecessary if Sunday were the winner. She says voting out Cece is best for her game and then doesn't do what's best for her?

Will

Will probably wouldn't have gotten a confessional explaining why he ate food (at the immunity challenge Ken won) if he won the game. It gives him unnecessary attention.

Also, let's face it. Will isn't winning the game.

Zeke

Zeke wouldn't have said the following if he won in the second episode: "We lost today’s Immunity Challenge, but, you know, I’m a little bit tickled to be going to Tribal Council. I came to vote people out, and I came to win a million dollars, and I… I want to get started. Figgy’s in the hot seat right now." (33x02). He is then subsequently blindsided as Mari goe​s out.

Hannah referred to Zeke as arrogant and condescending in a confessional this past episode.

Zeke made a personal attack at David at the last Tribal Council.


---------------------

On the other hand, everything counting against Ken's winner chances is all 100% from lack. None of his content you can point to and say shouldn't be there. It's just there's not enough content.

Ken

No confessionals for 4 episodes in a row.
Not much mention in episode recaps.

But edgic should always be done from the meat and bones-- the substance first. And then only after you look at what IS there that should NOT be there can you then look at what is MISSING and use that to count against players.

So this is the biggest point in favor for Ken's edit and why people have still not let Ken's edit go. The only thing counting against Ken is lack of content, but all the content he has gotten is good.

Remember the traditional edgic adage: NO content is ALWAYS better than BAD content! A lot of us, including TWG and myself ascribe to this view. This is why we have still not let Ken go yet. Because none of the content that Ken has received has been bad.
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bilki
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It's all a manipulation! LOL! It's crazy how we get such a skewed version of what actually happens. Has there ever been a winner who the other Survivors of the the same season thought wasn't portrayed honestly on the show?

Ken is VERY popular over at PreTV.
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KMInfinity
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Well, I know they ALL say this-n-that got left out, showing why they were awesome or not. But the one who comes to mind is Sophie, who was really disliked and only lost because of Coach's missteps. That whole season is a good look at a "Why X Lost" edit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivor:_South_Pacific

Parvati got a very kind edit that made her look like she was a much better player than she was. Between the late game medivac, and the sudden 3-way to 2 way finale that cut Cirie from the finale, she's good but not the goddess player some fanbois like to call her. (imo :P )

I would actually like to see some analysis of this after tempers have cooled, etc. A lot of what we read is "current-while-airing" such as the boot of the week interviewing, and so I think there's still some hard feelings.

http://robhasawebsite.com/survivor-ranking-the-winners/

A good list I mostly agree with.
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bilki
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Thanks, KMI! It's interesting to me how the theory is that the editors want the winner to come out looking a certain way rather than presenting them with flaws and all. Was it widely assumed that Natalie was going to win Samoa because Russell Hantz was portrayed as such an ass? For some reason, that's the only win that I actually remember without looking it up.
Edited by bilki, Nov 26 2016, 07:48 PM.
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KMInfinity
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Russell marked a new era in survivor editing, and some blame him for the trend to bad editing overall, though there was a course correction eventually somewhere around One World with Kim. In general, Jeff has way more control over the show as a producer than he did in the early years, and I think that while he does think like Mark Burnett in some ways, he's much more intrigued by the "big moves" and alpha males than the actual gameplay. There are season where entire alliances and strategies have been left on the cutting room floor if they could spin a story around a "hero edit" winner. Apparently, that was especially true in JT's season, when Fishbach's play (and play by others) was minimized given JTs crushing win.

Natalie's big move was making sure she wasn't a threat to Russell - so he would take her to the end. Remember, from the editor's POV, they KNOW Russell loses, but instead of showing Natalie's skill at manipulating players behind the scene, particularly Russell, while egging on the internal conflicts with the other alliance post merge (can't remember them, but they were dominant at the beginning) they actually DOWNPLAYED Russell's asshattery in comparison to how bad he really was. Which is why a great many, maybe even a majority of fans, thought he would win. He still has a LOT of support as the player "cheated" out of his deserved win. Bollocks I say. :P So, in one sense, she rode his coattails to the end, but in another sense, she was smart to see the flaws in his game and skillfully play on them while also keeping in his good graces. I think in another season, she might have shown some superb alliance building skills, a la Kim Spradlin, given her successful navigation of the Russell season.

If I were a sociologist/media analyst, I would push to have the full 39 days of film for analysis for a few seasons and really dig into the actual group dynamics, with a side focus on how the editors pick and choose stuff given their POV in hindsight knowing the winner.
Edited by KMInfinity, Nov 28 2016, 05:47 PM.
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bilki
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Interesting. I suppose there are plenty of times a move looks really stupid to us but looks entirely different to them at the time....and vice versa. I imagine it can be frustrating for them to sit and watch the editor's version of what actually happened to their life.


The best part of the winner's ranking list was all of the people who wanted to argue about it, even after he explained that he knew people would see things differently. I enjoyed the Boston Rob bashing, mostly because I sat through that dreadful season.
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jbrr1212
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I dont know if its the editing or what but I'm having a really hard time connecting to this season. There have been a lot of fun tribals and I'm entertained by them but I'm not really rooting for or against anyone. Then by the time the next week rolls around I forget what happened the week before. Maybe its just me. I cant quite put my finger on what the issue is.
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KMInfinity
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You are voicing the complaints of those who think there is an "EotW" (Eviction of the Week) focus at the expense the overall storyline for the season, which makes it harder to keep the players and events in mind.

I think the gameplay is bad, but the drama is high. Sorta like watching a trainwreck. If David pulls this off it will be amazing. If he doesn't and Ken wins, I'll be wondering just how boring Ken really is if he's had ONE confessional in FIVE episodes. If anyone else wins (Hannah?) I'll be WTF????
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bilki
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Cue the sappy music and the waterworks! My eyes did water a bit, though, because I'd read that Adam's mother passed away shortly after filming the season.

Has it ever been discussed what the average number of days is for the Survivors to get to this point of being highly emotional at the sight of loved ones from home? Would it happen after only 15 days? Do the producers ever discuss how long it takes for them to start to breakdown mentally in different ways?

Gosh, Ken, way to be a big baby over your name being brought up! I did chuckle when Will talked about how working with Ken wasn't any fun. Maybe that's why the editors haven't show us much of Ken? It gets old hearing people talk about honor and integrity when they're playing Survivor.

It was fun that Adam played his idol, though it was unnecessary in the end. Poor Will. But honestly, Zeke was a more interesting player to me than Hannah.
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bilki
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Oh, and someone just reminded me about how upset Ken was with Jessica after he told her that they were coming for her, then she went and asked about it.
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Dax
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I backed up and watched a couple parts a couple times, and I still didn't quite understand how/why Ken exposed the plan to vote out Zeke... but okay, extra drama on Will's choice...

Kinda rare for someone to play an idol for somebody else, so that's always a fun moment, and the other side didn't know that THEY knew they'd be voting for Hannah..
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bilki
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I don't know that Ken exposed the plan to vote out Zeke as much as he exposed Will's intention to vote against Zeke, while Zeke was thinking Will was voting with him. And while Ken was claiming that he was testing Will, I thought it seemed like more of a case of wounded ego.
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KMInfinity
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Yeah people are calling Ken the new Coach. :P I know there's always film on the cutting room floor but I don't see how any of it could justify Ken's actions. I agree, he was mostly blowing up Will's game, but I guess he was also trying to see if Will was lying and that hadn't targeted him. The problem is that if Will "passed the test" (as he was telling the truth) he's now pissed.

And yeah, he was sooooo pissed at Jess when she did it. lol

Another nail in the Ken Wins crowd.
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bilki
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Well now we know why Ken didn't get a Winner's Edit. Adam's story was quite emotional. I did appreciate what he said at the reunion show about it being a story to those of us looking in on the snow globe but it's actually his real life.

Did he talk about his mother at Final Tribal? I haven't watched it but I saw plenty of tears when I flipped over to the reunion show.
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Dax
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He did, yeah, right towards the end...

I didn't love his use of his story (as empathetic as I am to it) to maybe sway the jury to vote for him (not that he wasn't deserving), but wow, the reunion tears were powerful... that he came home and had JUST an hour with her... so terribly sad, and yet far 'happier' than if he'd MISSED her by an hour, or five minutes...

David and Hannah transformations were fun... they'll probably be chosen to play again sometime, and I think I'd have (wrongly) guessed David as the 34 returnee if I'd stayed spoiler-pure to the end...
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KMInfinity
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Sucky ending, imo. Adam goes on the list with bob and Fabio. Bleah.

Of the final four, I would have rather AnYONE other than Adam win.
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bilki
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Quote:
 
Of the final four, I would have rather AnYONE other than Adam win.
Any thoughts or feelings about his edit?

Lots of David love over at the other place. Ken was smart to vote him off, though it didn't help his game in any way. It would have been nice if Ken would have rather had David beat him than Adam. Oh well.

It's funny to see all the bitching and moaning about returning players people don't want to see again. I don't remember if I disliked Tony but he's rather unpopular so it seems safe to assume I wasn't a fan. I don't know why Sandra is given another chance at it.
Edited by bilki, Dec 15 2016, 07:18 PM.
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KMInfinity
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Sandra's being given the chance to be a three time winner. I actually suspect that some of them are at the point they get paid a big stipend and are "guaranteed to get off early." I dunno though, survivor is much more competitive than BB.

Quote:
 
Adam - Any thoughts or feelings about his edit?


Yeah, general consensus is his edit sucked a LOT. Because he didn't give them much to work with. He actually got a LOT of NSPV, which is unusual for a winner, especially midgame. He also contradicted himself or was "wrong" on a lot of things (says something, proven wrong by the action or event), and at the final TC it was actually brought up how often he was on the wrong side of the vote - the person he voted for was NOT booted that episode. It's also pretty clear now that Hannah's edit was deliberately sandbagged, meaning her good moments not shown or downplayed (or just enough to make her story make sense) while her bad moments highlighted, in order to make sure she wasn't seen as a deserving winner against Adam. The general consensus is that his "story" was such a great plot (gag) that they didn't need to work hard to build up his game skills, or hide his flaws much.

The edgic folks are busy trying to find out where they went wrong in analysis - was Adam's edit "unique" and needs a template developed as a possible future winner type...or did they miss clues? One big one, I think, is that edgic's mantra is that the clues to the game's finish are in the PREMERGE episodes. Adam was the only person premerge to explain WHY he wanted to win so much in a confessional. Everyone else was (edited as) only discussing what they would learn, or wanting to get farther. Even David never directly discussed his goal as winning the game (or probably did and it wasn't shown) but instead was always focused on the next move, the next TC. That's not the winner edit.

The truth is that Adam won due to a lot of luck, Ken's voting off David, and Zeke's bitter campaign in the jury to taint hannah. he apparently worked really hard to badmouth her, so much so that the Game Changer crew supposedly have been sequestered individually rather than going to Loser Lodge as a group because Survivor doesn't like how the jury is being manipulated by certain players. I wonder if that's true.
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bilki
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Quote:
 
so much so that the Game Changer crew supposedly have been sequestered individually rather than going to Loser Lodge as a group because Survivor doesn't like how the jury is being manipulated by certain players.
Isn't jury members influencing each other a part of the social aspect of the game? You vote of the very people who hold your fate of winning and losing in their hands? Not that individual sequester is a terrible idea.

I hadn't heard that Zeke was badmouthing Hannah. I'm a little disappointed in him, though it felt like this group held loyalty in a higher regard than in some other seasons.

I like the idea of the Edgic people trying to figure out where they went wrong. Keep people on their toes, lol.

There was a faint voice in my head that told me Adam could win with the story about his mother in the episode in which he told Jay, but I'd enjoyed the season enough at that point that I didn't want to ruin it by entertaining the possibility.
Edited by bilki, Dec 16 2016, 12:48 AM.
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KMInfinity
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I haven't actually done the post-Finale tour of sites. maybe this weekend. It's hard with a laptop that only functions for 30-40 minutes. Apparently there are post-jury "exit interviews" somewhere. I dunno if they were done immediately after the tribal, or after the finale (which wed's finale was months later. Day 39 was in June I think.)
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KMInfinity
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Some post Finale quarterbacking and rethinking...

anthonyd46 wrote:
What eliminated Adam for me was he did too many shady things and got NSPV for it from things like looking over at the combo lock, helping ken on the puzzle, the bickering at the FTC thing, the taylor stuff, continually going back to people that burned him, but what finished him off for me was Zeke and his own alliance wanting to vote him out. The idol plays were wrong. He got called unnecessary for one of them. Just didn't get a good impression of him overall he looked too far in over his head sometimes. It was just too messy for me. Has a winner ever had as many N's in their edict chart before? I just can't believe he won 10-0 I thought with his story and 10-0 win he would be shown to look less negative. His edit really rubbed me the wrong way he seemed so into himself at times.

Redmond:
But a lot of those were only negative on a surface level, not in the detail. Everyone looked at the combo lock, and it was presented as Jay's mistake. He told us why he helped Ken, he didn't want Jay or David winning, it backed up his strategy of that episode, it didn't matter if Jay was annoyed by it, and Adam quickly convinced Jay he only did it to stop David winning. I think FTC made Hannah look bad because she was getting defensive and shouting where Adam remained relatively calm. Taylor was a goof, and while this was probably Adam's worst moment, no one was taking Taylor calling Adam an "idiot" seriously when it was coming from Taylor. Zeke and Hannah considered voting him out and called him erratic, but the b-roll always supported Adam, showed him alone or doing camp chores while people were accusing him of turning on them or whatever.

His idol play did get called unnecessary. That wasn't good. But I guess it was more to set up that Will took control to set up his boot.


richieassy:
so where does this season rank in terms of edgically shocking winners?

Oowatanite:
Edgically shocking winners ? Danni. Bob. Nat W. Tony.

This season ? Not really. Ken was the edgic fave going into the merge. Once he disappeared for several episodes and thereby out of contention, edgicers had to look around to see which flawed journey edit to back - David, Adam, Zeke, Hannah {snort}. Around this time, Adam was receiving all sorts of NSPV from all sorts of players and so was dismissed edgically.

Why David then ? For me, I blame the Tony (winning) edit. smiley: tongue It showed that an overly visible, warts and all type edit is now possibly a winning edit. And we weren't the only site to miss out on the winner - pretty much everyone had David winning this season so we were all fooled.


dotsdfe:
Pretty much exactly this. By the end of the premerge, my most prominent contenders were Ken, Michelle, Michaela, and Adam. Two were eliminated back to back, while Ken started going invisible, and Adam started getting hammered with NSPV that I thought disqualified him. So I pretty much just reshuffled the deck and brought in some other contenders that I had mostly written off for being journey edits (namely, David, Hannah, Zeke) and mostly worked with those + Jay once his edit began to recover.

I think most people followed a relatively similar pattern - I saw Adam on a lot of lists here premerge, but between the other contenders dying off and Adam's edit going south around the middle, a good chunk of us really just reshuffled the deck and looked for a viable journey edit, and David's edit wasn't terribly different than Tony's with a journey aspect.

But at the very least, Adam's edit getting a lot of premerge support makes him a little less surprising than some others. I didn't do Edgic back in Gabon, but from what I've seen, Bob takes the cake by far. Tony was a pretty big shock too - he got a tiny bit of support at points but IIRC the Tony movement almost never had any serious momentum and, funnily enough, almost everyone else who went reasonably far (Woo, Kass, Spencer, Trish, Tasha, LJ) had a solid amount of support at some point or another.


gategod:
Do we really need to justify why Adam's edit was actually good when it wasn't? It's like saying he played a strong game. He played a winning game and got to the end with two people he could beat. He's a very flawed winner. Middle of the pack at best, relying on a ton of luck, and seemed far less in control of the endgame than Hannah was. At the start of the game he was blindsided at the only vote he attended and was on the chopping block to go next. Thanks to a LUCKY swap mixture he was able to flip things around for himself, but even at the merge it's all so dedicated to how Adam is overplaying and making himself a target. Poor start, middle, and end, the bright spots don't erase the negatives. Had he not found that idol at F5, why hide an idol at f5?, he was even the one shown to be getting the votes that night to leave until he mistakenly told Hannah about his idol and they blindsided him by doing Bret. He even misplayed that idol. He stumbled into the end. He may have had ideas and plans to get there with the two he got there with, but he didn't steer the ship, he survived the wreckage. Even the final vote to take out David is edited to give Hannah the credit and make Chris and the jury look obtuse for thinking Adam played the bigger part in it. Maybe he did, but that's not what we were shown.
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bilki
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I had to Google NSPV to see what that's all about. You and your fancy Survivor words, lol!

I ended up on Survivor Sucks and have watched David's and Jay's jury videos. David called Ken a goat and said he had no strategic game. Jay said Ken annoyed him but he was a good provider. Sounds like a Ken win was wishful thinking on the part of the fans.

Now I'm going to watch Zeke's...
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KMInfinity
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Aw, sorry. :P The jargon is embedded in my thinking after 15 years.

I wonder how much of what we saw of David was really David and how much was him playing a role for us. More than most, and despite his supposed anxiety issues, i would guess he above all (and for many seasons) had a good sense of how to portray himself as a character and not let us see his 100% real self.
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bilki
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KMInfinity
Dec 16 2016, 10:02 PM
I wonder how much of what we saw of David was really David and how much was him playing a role for us. More than most, and despite his supposed anxiety issues, i would guess he above all (and for many seasons) had a good sense of how to portray himself as a character and not let us see his 100% real self.
That's a good point, especially when you figure in that he's a writer and likely knows the importance of a good story. It seemed like there were numerous times when he'd be grumbling about some flaw of his, then find himself in an advantageous position. My inner cynic started getting suspicious. I enjoyed his story, though, even if some of it was just for show. The only other person I wanted to win would have been Jay.
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bilki
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Is Survivor Sucks monitored at all? Lots of hate over there, though some of it makes me chuckle. It's just been awhile since I've been on a site where people are allowed to be so nasty.
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