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Mad Men; Season 7
Topic Started: Jan 11 2014, 01:42 PM (4,728 Views)
Dax
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/13/jon-hamm-on-the-final-season-of-mad-men-and-the-advice-he-got-from-bryan-cranston-and-tina-fey.html

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KMInfinity
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Was she airplane gal? I liked her.

Good premiere. I guessed Freddie was pitching for Don. I am not fond of the Roger 'experimental' stuff - feels forced to me to connect with the Woodstock hippie stuff. LOVED the stuff with Joan. I'm not exactly sure wth is going on in CA.

Peggy et. al. are now part of SC-yada, but some are now working from CA and Detroit, correct?
Edited by KMInfinity, Apr 14 2014, 07:16 PM.
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Dax
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Yeah, and she's got a name in the credits (Lee Cabot) that we didn't hear on-screen, so... we'll be seeing more of her.

Roger's 'girlfriend' looks familiar to me, but I couldn't place her name in the credits...

Pete is loving California, Ted is not (but he's there, and was just visiting NY this week). Megan is there. Bob's in Detroit with Chevy.

Pete's real estate agent girlfriend is Jessy Schram (Karen on Falling Skies; Last Resort, OUAT, going back - Logan's too-skinny-and-dumb girlfriend on Veronica Mars...). I like her.
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blosslover
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I like that Ted is miserable, yes it is mean that I am glad that his marriage is failing, but I am. Poor Peggy!
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Marg
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I felt sorry for Peggy -- her last scene was particularly moving.

The airplane woman was good, as was Joan. Still don't care for Megan.

I thought Pete looked great.

Definitely agree that the Roger stuff doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the show.

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Krystal
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Pretty good start. Even though I am so annoyed at the split season.

In the meantime I'm waiting for a chiropractic apt and very annoyed g hat someone's yammering loudly on the phone and I can't read.
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Dax
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http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/mad-men-matthew-weiner-on-pete-campbell-vincent-kartheiser.html
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KMInfinity
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Great interview about my favorite Mad Man. thanks Dax.
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bilki
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Enjoyed last night's more than last week's. Loved the stuff with Don and Sally. Their relationship is one of the few things that still fascinates me about this show.

I didn't really get the ruckus over Sally showing up, and what's-his-face being there in Don's office. Seemed like he was in such a snit over nothing, then took it all out on Dawn.

Wasn't sure if I should be happy for Joan and her move up, because I'm guessing working in accounts will have just as many headaches as being in charge of personnel. Neither Don, Pete, Ted or Peggy seem like very happy people.

Pleased to see Jessy Schram here. Enjoyed her on Falling Skies until the character became a mere plot device. I liked how much she looked like a young Betty when Don met her last week.
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Dax
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Lou is just really, really mean.

Schram definitely fits right in, her hair styled that way...

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Krystal
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Is Lou the guy in Don's office? What a jerk. He could have easily covered for Don.

I enjoyed the Sally stuff also. She is a savvy little girl and it is interesting watching her mature.
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tgir
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KMI, really? Pete is your favorite???
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bilki
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tgir
Apr 21 2014, 11:44 PM
KMI, really? Pete is your favorite???
You didn't know that? She's been a Pete apologist for years. :D
Edited by bilki, Apr 22 2014, 12:10 AM.
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tgir
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bilki
Apr 22 2014, 12:01 AM
tgir
Apr 21 2014, 11:44 PM
KMI, really? Pete is your favorite???
You didn't know that? She's been a Pete apologist for years. :D
I didn't know. He makes my skin crawl...which, I suppose, means he's doing a good job.

Last year (I think) he was playing Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice onstage in Minneapolis. My daughter and I were appalled: we would both have loved to see the the play but could not bring ourselves to watch him do Darcy. Now, I could see him as Wickham just fine. But I couldn't let him ruin Darcy for me, which he would have no matter how good he was. Pete Campbell just transcends.
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KMInfinity
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Okay unless this season brings about some deeper understanding or new insight, it's my opinion that Pete has far more class, integrity, and morality than Don (and sadly, it now appears) Peggy. Yes Pete is seriously flawed - no doubt. But I continue to believe Pete's failings are more understandable than Don's for a lot of reasons. The biggest, however, is that Pete is sort of naive and unaware -- not yet emotionally and psychologically mature, not yet fully accountable. Of course he SHOULD be, as an adult, but he's sort of a man-child. This isn't to EXCUSE his behavior, but to explain and understand it.

Don, on the other hand, knowingly makes horrible choices. He isn't ignorant, or immature, or unsophisticated. He's just rotten. A cad, a bounder.

See, in my imaginings, Don is like Wickham, or even better, Willoughby from Sense and Sensibility.. Pete is like Bingham. Bingham is a nice guy because circumstances are easy for him, not because he has any moral fortitude or depth. But he has potential.

Nobody's like Darcy. :P

I am worried with this being the last season and Peggy being so unlikeable. I hope the moral here is NOT that a woman in business becomes a bitch. They are skating really close to some tropes I despise. We'll end up with the the whole debate about 'reporting what was' VS exploring possible realistic stories.

Joan continues to be the best thing on the show, imo. Loved her frustrations and concerns, and how she could handle Lou. I look forward to her in Accounts and if they really are gonna destroy Peggy, then Joan better succeed.

Quote:
 
I didn't really get the ruckus over Sally showing up, and what's-his-face being there in Don's office. Seemed like he was in such a snit over nothing, then took it all out on Dawn.
I took this as an indictment of the male hierarchy at work. Lou is driven by his own agenda, and hasn't the time, energy, or smallest interest in anything else. In the male dominant culture, it isn't a question of whether it costs him a little or a lot of effort, it's that he is 'above it all' and superior, and shouldn't even be BOTHERED with such a thing. It's the kind of compartmentalization that one sees in a very structured class society, where the people below are 'less human' and thus have no call upon one's basic HUMAN decency. Here are just a few of the ways Lou would 'justify' his attitude:
-Families take second place to work. He isn't under any obligation, morally or otherwise, to deal with this.
-If Don's family life was in order, such a thing (Sally arriving unannounced) wouldn't even happen.
-His personal 'goodness' has no connection with his work behavior. At work, he does what is expected to be successful in his career.
-Dawn failed in her duty to keep distractions and 'the real world' from interfering with his almighty work. It matters not a bit (and that was made very clear) that her reason for being away from her desk was to get his wife perfume, ostensibly 'for' him. In fact, she should have found a way to do that without inconveniencing him as she did.
-In some ways, he was 'closing ranks' to protect Don, as he didn't want to be the one to deliver the news to Sally that her dad was a loser who wasn't at work where he should be. But it pissed him off that he was 'honor bound' to protect Don, so someone lower on the pyramid had to pay the price...Dawn.

I do think a major theme has always been the dehumanizing nature of work. Is it the Madison Avenue culture? the male work environment? the materialistic culture? the idea that puts work ahead of family (esp. to be successful)? Lou represents the worst in every one of these dynamics.

And Pete's existential struggle to find meaning in his work and life is why he is poised to stand like a giant above Don and company. :cool:

Some day. When he has a little more balls, and a lot more compassion for others.
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Dax
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Peggy was unlikeable in her behavior with Shirley, absolutely, but I think 'if they really are going to destroy Peggy' is an overstatement. She's miserable. It's well-established that she doesn't always do or say the right thing... but she IS basically a 'good' person we can root for...

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Krystal
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Yes, I also think Peggy is miserable so that is why she is behaving badly.

Don had a really hard upbringing, Pete did not. That allows (in my mind) for Don to be more screwed up.

I agree with your analysis of Lou and how he treats people. That was common for the time.

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KMInfinity
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>>>>Peggy was unlikeable in her behavior with Shirley, absolutely, but I think 'if they really are going to destroy Peggy' is an overstatement. She's miserable.

So far she's a still a good person, but she's been miserable for a long while, and if anything she has been increasingly negative as she's move up in power. It's not just with Shirley. Everyone she comes in contact with acts like they're dealing with a prickly cactus, which is the whole point of the elevator scene and the exchange about Valentine's Day with Stan. It's understandable, but it's been her arc forever. This is not, imo, an episodic moment, but a continuation of all of last season. It's always been a balancing act with her as she tries to negotiate 'how to be a woman' within a man's business culture, but I would say she is no longer automatically a 'good' person. She's calculating, abrasive, self righteous; she's got tunnel vision, she's hard, she's sarcastic, bitchy, and just generally a pain-in-the-ass to work with and be around. When 'good Peggy' realizes she's done wrong, she feels shame, admits she's wrong, but in general I would say she's bitchy Peggy with moments of 'good Peggy' surfacing, rather than the other way around. It may be the show's theme to show that's what happens to women. It may be justified, and definitely understandable. It's just sad to me that it's the story that is being told, even if it is a 'true' reflection of the times.

And can arguably be said to describe the work and business climate even today.


>>>Don had a really hard upbringing, Pete did not. That allows (in my mind) for Don to be more screwed up.

True. Except, I would think Don would also have a stronger understanding of what's important, and not be sucked into so much of the negative behavior because he recognizes what's really of value. The whole plot with his 'breakdown of honesty' is creating a confusing thematic focus for me. Are they trying to suggest that honesty is a weakness? That Don's weakness is his lack of control (not know WHEN to be honest?) Something else? You can't fight city hall/human nature? I want to rewatch those scenes with Sally again.

One thing I've always disliked about MM is that it limits itself to an almost documentary style storytelling, with little analysis or point of view or attempt to judge or assess. No one shares meaningful or insightful discussion or support. People are adrift like islands, leading those lives of quiet desperation. The happiest people are seem to be the least self aware...

Their theme could be 'And that's the way it is.' Not, "It SHOULDN'T BE this way."

Granted Weiner and Hamm et all probably believe their anti-shallow viewpoint (for lack of a better term) is implicit in the work, but I would suggest in fact the show skates perilously close to glorifying the world they showcase, and many critics and viewers have said that. Hamm in fact mentioned in one of the interviews this season how flabbergasted he was to realize how many fans 'want to be like Don Draper.' The show does not present a really strong suggestion that this world is damaged, rotten to the core, hollow and shallow.


Edited by KMInfinity, Apr 22 2014, 04:28 PM.
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Dax
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Re: Peggy - fair enough.

>> One thing I've always disliked about MM is that it limits itself to an almost documentary style storytelling, with little analysis or point of view or attempt to judge or assess. No one shares meaningful or insightful discussion or support. People are adrift like islands, leading those lives of quiet desperation. The happiest people are seem to be the least self aware...

I agree with your facts here, but don't think it would be stronger for working against that... I don't think these characters would be true to themselves if they... discussed their feelings more. Oh, when they TRY to, it's fascinating (Don/Sally here... memorably, Don and Joan drinking and chatting a little), but they're too... you know, 'them' - to navigate healthy communication (which is fun, since they're all about communicating 'their message' to their clients and their clients' audiences...).

>> The show does not present a really strong suggestion that this world is damaged, rotten to the core, hollow and shallow.

I think it does, it's just that dummies (like those Hamm is talking about; also those that 'want to be Tony Soprano') are CLEARLY missing it, but I don't think that's Weiner's fault...

>> Are they trying to suggest that honesty is a weakness? That Don's weakness is his lack of control (not know WHEN to be honest?) Something else?

That's a fun discussion. Because telling Sally and Bobby more about who their father is (because they know nothing)
(like Jon Snow)
is a GOOD thing... but switching up his Hershey pitch like he did... um, yeah, no that wasn't the right time or place...

Sigh. Only twelve more hours... I can't wait to see how it all unfolds, but I'm going to be very sad to not follow these characters any further into their lives...
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Krystal
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You had (have) to be a bitch in those days and even some still to make it in a male oriented career. I was a bitch, and still can be, but not to my assistants or whoever did a good job for me. However, in my group practice, I was the one who fired evryone, my 2 male partners couldn't do it. But day to day I treated people better (if they were doing their job) and was better liked than the guys by some of the staff.

In the early days as a female specialist it was hard as the men either wanted to ignore you or sleep with you. The wives were jealous if you looked too good. Much socializing was done on the golf course, and I didn't golf, or men's clubs.

Of course I had a good home life and my husband had a career so all of the income did not fall on my shoulders.

I mostly had female patients, and I had a very good relationship with almost all of them.
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tgir
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I think that even today, a strong woman is quite often considered to be a bitch for being assertive, for having authority. Women still quite often utilize less direct and more nurturing or pseudo nurturing ways to couch issues in order to get done what needs to be done. Men are bastards and everybody simply accepts that they are. Of course not all men are bastards or even most. But no one thinks a man is unsexing himself or out of line or pushing boundaries for being assertive.

Don/Pete: I know we've had this discussion before. Both are extremely flawed individuals, and flawed men and flawed fathers. Both had lousy upbringings, with Pete having a great deal of wealth but no emotional warmth from either parent. Don had no money, no parents, an abusive step mother who hated him and who felt obligated to him and was raised, partially, and imo, unbelievably in a whore house.

One big difference between the two is that Don has always sought to transcend his circumstance--often through escape,yes. He left to join the army, and when fate/circumstance presented an opening, he left his old, despised (bastard son of a whore) identity behind and took the identity of a dead man, which was as close to a clean slate as he could get. He received probably the first genuine nurturing in his life from Anna who did not judge him and encouraged him to make the most of himself. Understandably, if not necessarily admirably, Don believed that the way to better himself was through financial success. He was blessed (and cursed, in a way) with good looks and charm to go with his not inconsiderable intelligence. He understands what people (in the abstract, and as a group) want and how to give it to them, or make them think they're getting what they want and need, and to want what he has to offer. He understands the mechanics, he understands the formula, even the poetry of the human heart. But he doesn't quite understand actual relationships, and love. He is caught in the idea that beauty is the most important thing (Betty, and also Megan) and providing luxuries is the most important thing, is the way you demonstrate love. He understands sex, he understands form but real emotion? Not really. He saw absolutely no examples of healthy human interactions on any level when he was growing up so he has little basis on which to build real relationships himself. We've seen him gradually, painfully, realize that he is missing some very key elements, some important understanding. He wants to be a good husband to Megan, and I think he wanted to be a good husband to Betty as well. He just didn't really understand how he hasn't been a good husband. With Betty, it was largely about sex and control: remember his conversations with the psychiatrist? I felt so bad for Betty--and in fact, that was largely what made me not hate her. With Megan, he's faced with a woman who is younger, more modern and more in tune with the changing culture and who isn't interested in being controlled. The extreme example of attempting to control a woman was with Sylvia and of course, failed miserably because she realized he did not realize it was all play acting. In Don, I see genuine strength of character (however deeply flawed--and he is deeply, deeply flawed) but he is strong, effective and is genuinely trying to be a better person, even if he has little clue how to do it. He is making some attempts to forge a real, genuine relationship: he revealed more to Megan (learning that his secrets destroyed his marriage to Betty) and to Sally because he actually does love his kids, even if he doesn't know how to relate to them very well and certainly not on an emotional level. In many ways, he relates to them as most men of that era related to their kids.

Pete also came from a family which emotionally neglected and perhaps abused him. He had lots of privilege but instead of being stronger for it, he is weaker and pretty ineffectual. Like Don, he really sees only surface: he married the rich wife with plenty of the right connections, he sees having mistresses or at least sex on the side as simply a perk of being a man of certain means. He is, imo, mostly petty and mean spirited and dishonest to the core. He is dishonest with himself and his idea of bettering himself is to be in charge. However, he lacks the talents to do so. He doesn't care about becoming a better man: he cares about winning. I think he was genuinely sorry when his marriage fell apart. I think he cares about his daughter but not enough that he would give up the chance to be on the west coast so he could spend more time with his daughter. He didn't even want to have to commute to the suburbs to spend time with his daughter, instead preferring his pied a terre where he could take his sexual conquests. I see him as a small, petty, bitter little man who has reached the peak of his human development and probably did so by age 9.
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KMInfinity
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Great post tgir. I agree with some of it. :P I do think somehow I hold Don to a higher standard which isn't really fair.

>>>>I don't think these characters would be true to themselves if they... discussed their feelings more. Oh, when they TRY to, it's fascinating (Don/Sally here... memorably, Don and Joan drinking and chatting a little), but they're too... you know, 'them' - to navigate healthy communication (which is fun, since they're all about communicating 'their message' to their clients and their clients' audiences...).

Good point about the irony of the 'communicating the message' on Madison Ave. I agree that the 50's-60's time period includes a constraint that limits more honest, deeper 'sharing' - and one of the hallmarks of the counterculture is to 'let it all hang out' and react to that paradigm. But regarding Peggy, I just wish there was some way to give us a stronger sense of her POV, to show what Krystal was talking about, that she's just in a really really tough spot, to validate her experiences. I think there is a point where the show is in danger of (unintentionally?) sending the wrong message about Peggy and her experiences. Upon further reflection, I think some of it might be due to the poor plot decisions. Having the conflict center round the roses comes at Peggy's expense, and includes that whole mess with Ted Chaough. I do think a closer parallel with Lou's 'bitchiness' could have been better developed - maybe by highlighting Peggy's justifiable reasons for feeling bitchy with Shirley - say Shirley dropped the ball with a client and Peggy overreacts? Contrasted with Lou overreacting to a much less justifiable situation with Sally. The whole focus of the valentines day subtext just seems to drive home that Peggy's hormones are the problem, not the pressures of her business responsibilities and the unfair treatments and burdens she faces as a women.
Edited by KMInfinity, Apr 23 2014, 05:18 AM.
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tgir
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Well, KMI, I don't think that MM is particularly woman-friendly. I think the show sees them as much more victims than the men do and much more powerless. The two black secretaries seem to have more agency and more actual friendships than any of the white female characters. Even the maid that Betty fired was far more together than her employers. Yes, she got fired for no reason and yes, it made Betty look bad--but she had a better, more genuine relationship with the children than did Betty, and I would argue that she's as close to an actual friend that Betty has ever had.

I would say that Valentine's day just highlighted that Peggy's problem is that she is a woman without a man. She's in a difficult position as a female with a lot of responsibility and struggling mightily with getting respect from the men. Joan as well, but she's had no problem getting married, having--and raising her child. And we know she has friends outside of work. Betty? She has work and she has her home which is really just another job as she's landlord in a place she doesn't feel entirely safe. Peggy is more able, more allowed to show emotions than Don is, yes: she's a woman and it's expected.
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Krystal
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I think men who made money were considered more powerful and to them it was enough to make the money, you didn't have to show love or affection. To be a "good provider' was the most important thing, and in fact was to many women (that is to marry one) as well. Especially in that culture. I really agree with TGIR in her analysis of both Don and Pete. Very few guys of that era had 'nurturing" parents, in fact many went through the depression and were just glad not to have to eat a squirrel for dinner, so I don't cut Pete a lot of slack.

I didn't like the sl about the flowers either. I would have preferred she get bitchy about a work issue and maybe just have it come in that it is VD and having no one makes the day worse. I also do not think MM is terribly female friendly.

Yes, women today still catch shit if they choose men's professions. Many MD's are now women but they are mostly in Pediatrics, general, geriatric and such areas. They are very rare in orthopedic surgery and most surgical areas.

And how about if Hillary does decide to run, how many times will she be called a bitch?
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Krystal
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I think Don ahould have told them to go screw themselves when they said he should answer to Lou. Lou is a total asshole.

I was annoyed at the Betty SL holding up the office SL (as well as the Megan sl). But wow, Betty outdid herself didn't she? She really is so insenstive. She should never be anyone's mother. Cracked me up in the beginning, like she is too busy mothering to work, in the meantime the Nanny does it all. She can't handle one day out with the kids in her pink Jackie suit. What a worthless bitch.
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Dax
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I didn't think the Betty/Bobby story took too much time. I liked it. Poor kid.

Oh, of course, 'old Don' would have told them to fuck off. But can Don change?...

Super-awkward, Don's day of waiting around...

Loved it (the big fight with Megan, too... and Don not accepting that as 'the end', either... normally, he would, but... trying to change).

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KMInfinity
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It was really interesting how people had different interpretations of what Don's absence meant. Really sorry to see both Peggy and Joan having zero support for him. Good for Roger.

For some reason I thought it had only been a couple week, but it's now past Valentine's Day, so when was the hershey meeting last year?
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Dax
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Around Thanksgiving.

Peggy's bitter about Ted, but Lou doesn't seem to value her work much, so there's got to be a PART of her that misses Don...

Joan didn't like Don 'firing' Jaguar.

Yeah, good to see Roger step up so well for Don... and of course, he's right from both a financial standpoint and a do-we-want-him-as-the-competition point of view...

http://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6293/the-art-of-screenwriting-no-4-matthew-weiner
Short summary points - http://flavorwire.com/454206/12-things-we-learned-from-matthew-weiners-paris-review-interview

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/books/review/matthew-weiner-by-the-book.html

http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/ben-feldman-mad-men-silicon-valley-interview.html

http://time.com/81554/mad-men-what-have-you-done-with-peggy-olson/
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tgir
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Actually, it is amazing that Roger is still tolerated while Don was thrown out. Hubby and I had the same reaction when Megan told Don it was over: every time he tells a woman a new truth about himself, reveals a new vulnerability, he gets rejected.

I think Don accepted the deal because work is all he has left. He doesn't have much of a relationship with his kids and isn't likely to get to change that: it was too against the norm for the time. The non-compete clause makes it more difficult but I am sure it could be done. But the agency was Don's baby all along. I frankly think the rest of them are being ungrateful turds.
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Dax
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Don was way off his creative game throughout 1968, though... lost out on a lot of pitches... the merger (and getting Chevy) was smart, but then his 'competition' with now-partner Ted was crazy... the drinking was way out of control... and then losing Hershey, BIG.

I don't really think they've been wrong, or that their stipulations are THAT unfair, even if they're designed to make him want to quit or be so impossible to adhere to that it'll be easier for them to fire him (and strip him of his partnership without having to buy him out)... 'can't go off-script in a meeting'... but that's WHY you want Don Draper working for you...
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