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Doctor Who; All seasons
Topic Started: Sep 2 2012, 11:20 AM (3,463 Views)
blosslover
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Watching the Christmas special and typing through the ads. I also watched the Matt Smith retrospective, it was so much better than the 30 minute one (11 revisited), which was just awful. Of course, one thing annoyed me how Matt has a worldwide fan base. BWHAHAHA really, Who has had a worldwide fan base for decades BBCAmerica.

For me having Gallifrey come back is weird as the relationship that the Doctor has with them isn't very positive. While I know he wouldn't want billions of children to die and the regular Gallifreyans, the Time Lords put him through a lot of ugly things. (Many of which I have little idea about, but I know that much.)

Will post more after "The Time of the Doctor" has ended in the US. It has been difficult to avoid spoilers...
Edited by blosslover, Dec 25 2013, 11:12 PM.
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blosslover
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Okay posting about tonight's episode. I was underwhelmed, really. Yes the cameo was good, and the speech, but otherwise. Considering it was old age, it was a different sort of goodbye than 9 or 10 as both went away much more quickly. That said the episode itself was very confusing, and not a good confusing. How they had the Doctor talk to the head was odd, he isn't Tom Hanks or Hamlet...

What also was weird was how come 11 didn't remember seeing 13...did he have to block that out? Also the part with him and Tom Baker at the museum. Both of those things were already ignored.
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bilki
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(I was reading around and typing while you posted yours, BL, but it's funny that we were both confused.)

I forgot to mention that it was so cool to see Tom Baker at the end of The Day of the Doctor. Gave me goosebumps.

The Time of the Doctor

Confused about some of what was going on here but that happens with the way Moffat writes his stories. Other than it being a love-saves-day moment, I didn't really understand how Gallifrey was able to make another crack in the Universe to send the Doctor his new regeneration. I thought those cracks were caused by something else.

I did like how they tied up the "Silence will fall" arc. It was cool that they were actually trying to prevent something "bad" from happening, rather than being the cause of it.

Being a big fan of Amy Pond, I loved her showing up just before he regenerated. That was about as close to tears I got, though Clara declaring how much she didn't want him to change did tug at me a bit.

Capaldi's intro was fun. I'm intrigued by him. Disappointed we have to wait so long to get new episodes, though I realize it will just be more Moffat nonsense.

At the moment, I feel like I enjoyed The Snowmen more than this one. Mostly because I love Jenni and Vastra, and Strax always makes me giggle.
Edited by bilki, Dec 25 2013, 11:36 PM.
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KMInfinity
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I was not impressed with the Christmas Special send-off for Matt Smith. Surfing around and most reviews seem lukewarm at best. The plot was even holier (I mean, full of holes :P ) than Moffat's usual, and seemed to be shoe-horning a lot of resolutions to past loose ends. There were some nice moments of emotional impact and the final scenes with Matt regenerating were good. I liked his line about not forgetting himself, and liked the dropping of the bow tie. I wasn't a fan of Amy Pond, so I wasn't all that heart-rent with her raggedy man cameo.

Peter Capaldi did not impress me with his appearance. I know the newly regenerated Doctor is disoriented, but I agree with others that he seemed creepy, not quirky. I know a LOT of people are looking forward to him taking over the role so I hope this was an aberration.
Edited by KMInfinity, Dec 26 2013, 12:13 AM.
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bilki
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I didn't get the creepy vibe but I noticed a number of people saying it at TWOP. I saw it more as disorientation but when I re-watched it I can see how it would be perceived as creepy with the way he gets up in Clara's face with that strange look on his face. I have to wonder, though, if it has something to do with Clara school-girl-crushing on the Doctor, and now he's in the form of a much older man. I'm guessing this puts an end to all the flirtation between Clara and the Doctor. I like Clara but wouldn't mind him getting a companion who's a bit more unique.
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blosslover
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The exterior of Clara's building was Rose's building. Have they really run out of locations in Cardiff? And how Clara came back, that was strange. I think the worst hilarious comment was how K9 had better character development than Clara. Also her father was dead when she was introduced, and now he isn't.

I don't really have an opinion on Capaldi yet playing the part. I just hope the stories make more sense for his sake (and mine).

While I had a couple of issues with the 50th special, I think having that on before and after the Christmas special made the Christmas episode seem even more messed up tho I must admit the advertising that was played during the regeneration portion was annoying.

I liked the Snowmen much better too. Actually out of all the Christmas episodes, I think I enjoyed this one the least as I couldn't follow it.
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KMInfinity
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Bilki:
>>>>>I didn't get the creepy vibe but I noticed a number of people saying it at TWOP. I saw it more as disorientation but when I re-watched it I can see how it would be perceived as creepy with the way he gets up in Clara's face with that strange look on his face. I have to wonder, though, if it has something to do with Clara school-girl-crushing on the Doctor, and now he's in the form of a much older man.
That's a good point. Even CE was young enough you could tolerate a bit of flirting between The Doctor and the girl. This is why Donna Noble is my favorite companion in NuWho. It's not Capaldi's fault that there has been subtext flirting going on and now it seems creepy.

The majority at Gallifrey Base really liked it, confirming I am not GB material. In general, they like Moffat a lot ore that RTD.

>>>>>I'm guessing this puts an end to all the flirtation between Clara and the Doctor. I like Clara but wouldn't mind him getting a companion who's a bit more unique.
Yeah. I'll comment under Bloss's K9 > Clara comment. :D

Bloss:
>>>>>The exterior of Clara's building was Rose's building. Have they really run out of locations in Cardiff? And how Clara came back, that was strange. I think the worst hilarious comment was how K9 had better character development than Clara.
That's hysterical, because true, imo! Clara's story never made a lick of sense. Her 'impossible girl' existence was never (imo) dovetailed well enough into her human character and life (as witness her family Christmas dinner...) and so she seems very much like a plot point and not a real character. She had such potential and the souffle girl, and then it got ruined.

>>>>>Also her father was dead when she was introduced, and now he isn't.
That's what I thought---they whole leaf metaphor and story....

>>>>>I don't really have an opinion on Capaldi yet playing the part. I just hope the stories make more sense for his sake (and mine).
I agree. I want stories that make sense. I will never like a doctor as well as Tennent, and usually I am pretty able to be objective, so I don't understand all of the DT criticism. A lot of people disliked his regen story and thought RTD was too angsty, but I don't see it. Usually I can see why others my see it, even though I disagree, but I just don't even see it.

>>>>>While I had a couple of issues with the 50th special, I think having that on before and after the Christmas special made the Christmas episode seem even more messed up tho I must admit the advertising that was played during the regeneration portion was annoying.
Big big agree. I liked the 50th Anniversary show a lot, so this looks especially weak by comparison, especially since I watch it just before the Christmas special. I liked all of the past Christmas specials better than this. My favorite Matt special was the Widow, the Doctor,and the Wardrobe...being a huge Narnia fan.

I liked the Snowmen much better too. Actually out of all the Christmas episodes, I think I enjoyed this one the least as I couldn't follow it.

Mark finished the Eccleston year with me on a rewatch in September so we are ready to begin David Tennant's doctor and I'm really looking forward to it, especially since he bought me the final 'specials' for Christmas that ended DT's tenure and ends with his regen episode.
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blosslover
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I wonder if it isn't a cultural thing…as Moff's show is more MOTW and self-contained, while in the US we tend to have more science fiction that is arced. So we have that preference unlike other people???

The actor who played Clara's Dad was completely different also.

Some of the criticism of DT I think comes as a blowback as he has such devoted fans. And many of them aren't traditional scifi audience members, so the show went extremely mainstream within the UK. Ironically tho DT is a Whovian himself, which perhaps is another issue that bugs people. (Why I don't know…then again sometimes DT does insane stuff as himself, and I wonder what he is thinking--the stuff he did around Christmas is a good example. Honestly it would be hard for me to hate someone who has said the following: "I still am a geek. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." Then again some people may not be self-aware enough or think the term geek is evil. Now it is not…seriously take the word back people…and it isn't a disrespect unless it is said by someone who uses it in a negative way not in the case when someone claims it as their own. It isn't a racial slur or some such.) In the Eleventh Hour panel during 50th anniversary celebrations, Matt talked about David and how they were looking at a wall of past companions and how David knew everyone and didn't get why Matt didn't know them.

Also I think that unlike some of the other Doctors 10 is emotional. One person I read said that he was the most human, which they saw as a negative, and which I saw as a positive. I like to be able to relate to characters and considering how important his companions were to him it made sense. They were his family and that was something he hadn't had for hundreds of years. I think people thought that the 10 regeneration was too much, too bombastic and such. Considering it was a goodbye not just for DT, but also much of the behind the scenes team, I think that choice was made intentionally. If someone had issues with his performance in that episode, well he was overcome on an emotional level (some people posted behind the scenes material and basically he was a wreck on his last day…which some may argue that he should have been able to overcome. Well that's being human, not being perfect…rather too much emotion than not enough.)

Anyway back to the episode from Wednesday night. Here is a commentary from an RTD fan comparing it primarily to TEOT, and how Moff took elements of that and put them in Matt's last episode. Not sure what I think about it…

http://kilodalton.tumblr.com/post/71238390175/more-thoughts-on-the-time-of-the-doctor-aka

I liked the Narnia one...I think I'd do it the Narnia one, the Snowmen, then the Christmas Carol and this year's for Matt.
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KMInfinity
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i agree with all of your points. I don't like to generalize too much but I do think the Brits have preferred the MOTW format more, hence Moff. I also agree that DT fans have been sometimes obnoxious,m especially the 'Manny style' fangirls-with-an-i who had such crushes on him. Not sure how that's working out with Matt. I agree his personal life took an unfair hit and had an impact too. There were SOOOO many rumors and gutter press articles. So add in his true antics and stuff and it was a heady mix. It's impotant to remember that CE was there only a year, so David essentially became the NuWho standard bearer who had to face all the past Whovian comparisons.

And as far as DT's 'human' portrayal and emo stuff and 'mistakes'...I will always prefer that to a technically perfect performance. (I remember this was a topic on STNG with Data. :-) )

Thinking about the Matt VS David years, I think a lot of it has to do with the companions. I didn't like Amy or Clara much, so it's harder for Matt to make that work.

I agree with your rankings for Matt's Christmas outings. David's Christmas Invasion will always be my favorite.

I caught "Midnight" last night repeating on BBC and even as a stand-alone, without my girl Donna, it was still better than anything from the Matt years. And "Midnight" isn't even in my top ten.
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KMInfinity
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Quote:
 
Anyway back to the episode from Wednesday night. Here is a commentary from an RTD fan comparing it primarily to TEOT, and how Moff took elements of that and put them in Matt's last episode. Not sure what I think about it…

http://kilodalton.tumblr.com/post/71238390175/more-thoughts-on-the-time-of-the-doctor-aka


I agree with a lot of that. Mostly, the idea that Moff doesn't EARN his emotional impact. The blogger captured exactly that ida with her description of the bow-tie. It's a great scene, but afterwards (so often with Moff it's not a warm afterglow but a nagging, "wait a minute..." ) I'm thinking, every single doctor had 'signature items' that typified that doctor's persona, and no one ever made big ole deal out of that before. He's changing his entire DNA (I think) - the bow tie is not a big deal. As a metaphor it works better understated. But Moff has to drop the anvil, suck out the superficial emotion, because otherwise there IS no emotional pull.
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blosslover
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I think almost any fan group can have annoying members. (I must admit at times, I bet I am way too much for people as sometimes I'm too much for myself.) Matt's fans seem quieter or else he has a lot less…they aren't pervasive the way DT's still are. That said I think Matt is well-liked in the US and Canada, but again it goes back to accessibility and how people only have started to see Who while Matt in the role. Also Matt seems to be a nice guy who just plays an eccentric character… ;) I think part of what hurts Matt is the fact that some viewers can't stand Moff's version of the show. There are a few people who are say "I like Matt, but I don't enjoy Doctor Who anymore."

I think you are right about the rumors regarding DT and all that (not that I know everything, far from it as I missed most of it. Like were people angry with him over Georgia?) I'd have to go search old articles to find out the real nasty stuff. That said I wonder if some fans wanted whomever played the Doctor to be beyond reproach. Then again the headlines write themselves as they could easily play off how he played Casanova, and all that jazz, plus Billie Piper was a tabloid queen even prior to DW. Bills nickname for him probably didn't help things in some circles...

I feel like I don't know Clara, while Donna, Rose, Martha, and Jack were all well-defined people. Even characters that weren't on as often like Rose's family, Mickey and Wilf had actual personalities. We didn't get to know Martha's family as much, but we barely knew anything about Amy's family or Rory's as we only met them on a couple of episodes. Amy's family didn't exist and then they did. I didn't hate Amy, but my feelings for her were based on the episode.

I want to see the full version of Christmas invasion…as I've only seen the BBC America edit.

With the coat, it wasn't a big deal, how he put it to the side even though it was significant. I didn't even notice he had put the coat away in the first viewing just that he didn't have it on himself. Yes it would have been like if 4 had taken the scarf off to regenerate or something…. Yes the character's DNA changes, the memories just remain, so he is physically a different person and the way he will react to situations is not the same.
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KMInfinity
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Billie supposedly mispronounced the name in an interview (Freudian slip?) and it caught on...

I don't think people were upset with him and Georgia; but he did have a reputation as a player and dating 'on his turf' - people he worked with. They have a second kid on the way, and he adopted her first son, so they seem pretty stable now.

I agree the secondary cast (Rose's family, Donna's family, even Martha's...seem more like real people than the Ponds an clara...
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blosslover
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LOL seriously...that's where it came from Billie misspeaking. I want to see the first usage, as I've only seen later ones. I could see some DW fans being offended that the nickname persisted as really that is so not child appropriate. I knew that DT dated the chick who played Reinette, but nothing beyond that. Doesn't actually matter though in the long run as long as nothing illegal happened (like the mess that the BBC has been dealing with in the last few months were some long time presenters are now accused of sexual abuse of children…UGH)

Georgia had another son. DT said on some radio show that he wanted to say hello to Ty, Olive and Wilfred along with Mrs. T.

While family was here, I watched the show with my nephew (13 years old). He has classmates who watch Who, but they don't have BBCAmerica. He prefers 10 to 11 (this isn't my influence, tho funny), but Jack is his new favorite. I put on the end of series 3 for us to watch, and he hadn't seen Jack before, and really liked him. Unfortunately he is way too young for Torchwood. He didn't even have an issue with him liking both men and women or anyone else for that matter. It was funny when we explained it to my sister (his mom)…

Oh in other news: "My very brief acquaintanceship with Tumblr is it's a place where people who really hate me gather" -Steven Moffat I also saw another quote about how Moff believes that what differentiates the companions are the actors not the writing. Does that make any sense?

Speaking of the Christmas show: Paul Cornell who wrote DW (Father's Day, and Human Nature/Family of Blood) wrote a short story in 2009, which has the same sort of premise as Matt's final show.

http://www.paulcornell.com/2009/12/12-blogs-of-christmas-one-doctor-who_9773.html
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KMInfinity
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A brutal indictment of the Moffat years, mourning what coulda been with Matt Smith.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/12/the-captain-kirk-problem-how-em-doctor-who-em-betrayed-matt-smith/282690/

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bilki
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It was validating to read what he said about S7. I very much enjoyed Matt Smith as the Doctor but even he couldn't keep me interested enough to continue watching Moffat's show. By the time Amy and Rory were sent packing, I'd had enough.

Who makes the decision to bring on a new showrunner? I so wish we'd gotten a new one when we got a new Doctor. My fear is the Moffat will stick around long enough for the show to slide right off my radar.
Edited by bilki, Jan 8 2014, 12:57 AM.
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Dax
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Dunno. BBC-owned, right? Whoever is running them...

Moffat won't be fired, but he'll probably eventually hand it off voluntarily...
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KMInfinity
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he gets so much praise for Sherlock, and there still is a sufficient fanbase of his, and another segment who think DW is a 'kids show' (as if that excuses crap????) so I agree with Dax. he'll leave only when he wants to leave.

Loved the 'eight words.' Is that I thing I never knew about?
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blosslover
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The thing is there are so few episodes of Sherlock (something like 9 since 2010), so even with the great ratings within the UK it isn't a bulletproof situation. It is up to the BBC to get rid of Moff or he has to decide to go. (I've seen people try to Harriet Jones ala Christmas Invasion, Moff, which I find hilarious...--sorry that means that people are saying that he looks tired to get the BBC to have a vote of no confidence and get rid of him.)

Don't want to give any spoilers out, but Capaldi started taping. The poor guy was hurt during his last acting job (three musketeers which will actually air on BBCAmerica)...he plays Cardinal Richlieu and he dislocated his thumb and still is in pain.

I never heard of the eight words thing, but appropriate, so many times that's exactly what happened to me, I didn't realize that was an actual thing.
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Dax
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I saw World War Z recently, with Capaldi as a 'WHO Doctor', which is an adorable coincidence.
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Dax
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http://io9.com/whos-going-to-replace-steven-moffat-as-doctor-who-show-1503277846
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KMInfinity
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I would LOVE Whithouse. I loved the BBC's Being Human - much superior to the amercanized version. I am firmly rooting for this to happen sooner rather than later.

Gatiss would be a middle of the road acceptable choice. I liked Night Terrors, but some of his other episodes have been 'plotty' and gimmicky, rather than character driven. Yet, the docudrama "Adventures in Time and Space" was gorgeous. He has a LOT of support from a certain segment of the fanbase.

Not familiar with Overman or Misfits.

Neil Cross would be very cool. I even liked his "Ring" episode, as I rather enjoy grand failures better than mediocre safety. My big concern would be that he seems to represent a high likelihood of someone who would drop out midstream and cause chaos for awhile.

Chibnall is a very mixed bag, as noted. I loved Broadchurch, but have a feeling he will fall victim to the Moffat syndrome of doing better work away from Who. Some people seem to think SF and Who are excuses to break the generally sensible writing rules they otherwise follow.

Gaiman. Well, why dream of the impossible?

Stryzcinski, intriguing but risky. And unlikely.

And of course, all speculative, and probably someone never even mentioned.

I wonder if he has promised to get the 12th Doctor (Capaldi) off and running and then pass the torch after one season of #12?
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Dax
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Hulu just showed me an ad for the new/final season of Misfits, and I thought I saw Michael Socha from your Being Human and my OUATiW, but imdb doesn't show him being in Misfits, so I wonder who that was...

Did you watch Babylon 5? I've heard plenty of good things about it over the years, but think I dislike JMS from his comics work, or at least reading interviews with him...

Cross... I have 1 & 2 of Luther on dvd... had 3 on the dvr, but let it go because I needed the space... I'll be interested in reading his Luther novels when I DO get around to watching the show...

Gaiman - well, yes, but I expected that article would include him when I clicked on it...

Wonder where American Gods is maybe set up at now... Neil posted a journal entry today saying he has a good half-dozen things he can't talk about right now, and that's surely one of them...

Did you like Neil's Cybermen episode?
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KMInfinity
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His Cybermen episode was pretty good, but I really loved his Doctor's Wife episode. It's one of my alltime favorite.

I liked the Babylon Five episodes I saw randomly, but it is VERY arc driven, one of the earliest to be so, and it was pre-Buffy so I didn't realize the commitment. I kept feeling lost, then miss a couple, then needing to get caight up and couldn't in the days before onDemand and repeats etc. One day I mean to watch them all in order, as it deserves to be watched. Almost everyone I know who's seen it all has at least liked it. It apparently varies wildly from one season to the next in tone and focus, etc. I still remember some of the key characters, such as Delenn. and G'Kar and Sheridan. It's on my "retirement' list.
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blosslover
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I feel the same way, Neil's cybermen episode was decent, but Doctor's Wife was one of the best during Smith's time as the Doctor.

With Babylon 5, I can't really comment...

Just about finished with Luther, I like it a lot...though I was disappointed that McGann was only in the first two series.

Chibnall is way too busy, so he shouldn't have even been on the list.
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blosslover
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Karen Gillan aka Amy got a lead in a pilot. http://www.hitfix.com/the-fien-print/doctor-who-favorite-lands-abcs-selfie-lead
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KMInfinity
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Good for her.
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blosslover
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Not sharing spoilers, but the new season is starting on August 23 for the US (8 pm ET), Canada, the UK (obviously) and other places too. They are doing a world tour and the first will be in Cardiff. During that event, they get to meet Jenna and Calpaldi will be able to see the first episode of the series in early August. Of course, they will be going to other places outside the UK on other dates, but no Comicon.

Of course, the really insane thing going on in Whofandom is the leak, again there was a HUGE leak of the first five episodes of the new series. Somehow they were at the translators in Miami and the scripts were posted in full. The BBC and others of course are upset, which is very understandable, but I'm amused as the idea they would post these things on an non-secure server is a bit daft. Then again I just read they accidentally leaked the last episode of last series on Blu-Ray before it aired, so I guess this is sort of par for the course.
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KMInfinity
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I have skipped the Leak and spoilers, so I am getting really excited.

Meanwhile, RetroTV is playing two half hour episodes nightly of old OLD Dr. Who from the Hartnell years. http://www.myretrotv.com/affiliates--schedules.html
Pretty stilted and bad in a lot of ways, yet like watching old old soaps. The power lurks underneath, if only to see how little things from long ago connect and resonate with to present. I LOL a lot at unintentionally funny lines. Ex:

Dr. #1: It's non of our business. We need to go. :fall:
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blosslover
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I've seen very few spoilers, (like episode titles)...but I didn't want to read the show ahead of time.

Saw a couple of the DW reruns with Hartnell, but I forget they are on...love that line.

BBCAmerica is marathoning DW all week, and on Saturday they have a new special....(according to my tv listings there is a second special on Monday also. No idea if they will make them any sort of spoilery.)
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KMInfinity
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Their specials are always like long commercials, very little substance. I'll check them out tho.
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