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Big Love; Season 5
Topic Started: Jan 18 2011, 01:48 AM (676 Views)
Dax
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Season 5 Main Cast
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Bill Paxton -- Bill Henrickson
Jeanne Tripplehorn -- Barbara Henrickson
Chloe Sevigny -- Nikki Grant
Ginnifer Goodwin -- Margene Heffman
Douglas Smith -- Ben Henrickson
Grace Zabriskie -- Lois Henrickson
Mary Kay Place -- Adaleen Grant
Matt Ross -- Alby Grant
Cassi Thomson -- Cara Lynn Walker

Out - Zeljko Ivanek (J.J. is dead), Amanda Seyfried (Sarah moved, but she'll be back for the finale), Shawn Doyle, Melora Walters, Mirielle Enos (but I expect we WILL see Joey, Wanda, and Jodean again, on a recurring basis).
Promoted Back Up To Main Cast After Being Recurring Last Year - Douglas Smith (Ben).
Promoted From Recurring - Mary Kay Place (Adaleen). Finally, as it was more than a little bizarre that she'd been a 'guest star' for the last couple seasons.

-

Premiere was good. Only nine shows left...

Gregory Itzin will be a great foil, I'm sure (funny, he was on Desperate Housewives on the same night, and may recur there, too).
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Manifan
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We dropped HBO so I can't see it this season, which bums me out. I wish there was a way to watch it online, especially since this is the final season.
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KMInfinity
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Caught the first two so far. I was really hoping it would not focus on the politics. What I liked about the show has kind of been lost - exploring an alternative philosophy, seeing a very non-traditional FAMILY functioning (or not). The early camping scene is what I want more of.
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Dax
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I've only seen just the premiere so far, but should be catching up soon.

I share your wishes for family stuff, but understand that there has to be SOME political material, as that was Bill's ambition, and as they've been outed now...
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Gatekeeper
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I'm one or 2 behind. I really need to catch-up.
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KMInfinity
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Nearly caught up. Marathon'ed three episodes yesterday, two more to be current.

Some amazing performances, especially from Tripplehorn, Zabriskie, and Goodwin. I really like the focus for Barbara's plot, but wish they would articulate it better. It would also be a good idea, imo, to finally "take a stand" on the question of plural marriage. The show has hinted a viewpoint in places, but has been careful to distinguish between the "compound style plural marriage" and other plural marriages such as Bill's or Don's. So define more clearly what the difference is....or begin to address one of the following positions:

*Any plural marriage is inherently destructive.

*A plural marriage is good or bad, based on the people in it (as in a traditional marriage of one man and one woman).

*A plural marriage is superior to a traditional marriage.

It's starting to irk me that the Mormon focus is so tight. I think the show would be stronger if it explored the issue of marriage thru other prisms at this point. SF's grandmaster Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress are nearly 50 yrs old...


Edited by KMInfinity, Mar 7 2011, 06:58 PM.
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Dax
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I'm four in, four to catch up with yet (two behind you).

>> It would also be a good idea, imo, to finally "take a stand" on the question of plural marriage. The show has hinted a viewpoint in places, but has been careful to distinguish between the "compound style plural marriage" and other plural marriages such as Bill's or Don's. So define more clearly what the difference is..

I don't think I agree... I mean, it's clear enough that 'compounds/Roman/Alby = Bad', but I don't think the show can or should... you know, 'judge' the characters too much. I like that they 'present' rather than define a point of view, though we can make up our own minds based on what we've seen... that said, I don't think many in the audience are going to find much empathy with Bill... we're probably meant to be more like Sarah, saying 'Um, yeah, this isn't for me... I love you guys, but...'.

Enjoyed Barb's honesty with Nikki (after the Margene/16 thing), that she was miserable when it was just her/Nikki/Bill...

I love Zabriskie.

Fun to have Rhonda back (in #4, the one I watched last night). Missing Frank (mentioned, at least, with the herpes/dementia stuff), Joey, Wanda, and Jodean some...

Ben/Heather is kinda cute.

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Dax
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Okay, through #6. Four more to go (two that have aired, and two yet to come).

Ben/Rhonda - yikes. Dummy.

The attempted hit on Don on the ice was a very scary scene, and I'm glad he survived.

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KMInfinity
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Somehow I forgot or never realized this is the LAST season. Boy things are in a knot. I really didn't sense an "end of days" vibe but this is it. How many episodes remain? (edited to add...just saw Dax's note - 10 eppies only? I'm done with eight. Good grief!)

So, is Bill destined for redemption? Will he be justified? Will he take a huge fall?

Will The Principle survive in the Henrickson family? Or will Barb join a new church, and Marjene explore that wide world - leaving Bill and Nikki in a traditional marriage? Or...leaving Bill alone? The writers have been clever in keeping the Henricksons, and even Bill, sympathetic for a long time. There's a lot of Bill hate on BL sites, but generally Bill and his family have always had an even worse foil at Juniper Creek, trying to make the claim they were somehow different or better than the UEB. But that is falling apart, especially as the revelation of Marjene's secret ripples along.

Maybe Bill unseats Alby as the leader of Juniper Creek, and takes up the mantle of prophet there, determined to try to save The Principle AND root out its abuses. Can that be done? Are the two mutually exclusive?

How do the stories of the younger generation impact the final story? Teeny and Sarah have already left. Ben, despite his favored status as priest holder with multiple partners in his future, seems disenchanted with polygamy. His mom's divorce meant something to him. He's horrified by Caralynn's creepy relationship. He's attracted to Heather...who may or may not be willing to follow in Barb's footsteps. How do their stories highlight the or contrast with the show's themes?

Will there be "closure" or will we be left "in media res?"




************************************************************
This makes for some scary reading. I wondered just how much of the Big Love situation was based on reality and apparently quite a lot of it.
The FUNDAMENTAL LDS Church
Some tidbits:

-Church membership is secretive. 10,000+ in one sister-city compound at Colorado City, AZ-Hildale, UT. In 1935, the location on the Utah–Arizona border was thought to be ideal for the group because it allowed them to avoid state raids by moving across the state line.

-When FLDS leader Jeffs recommended that FLDS Church members pull their children out of Colorado AZ public schools, the number declined from 1200 to around 250.

-The land and houses occupied by the FLDS Church on the Utah/Arizona border are owned by the United Effort Plan (UEP), which was once a subsidiary organization of the church. The UEP also owns most of the property of the businesses that are controlled by FLDS Church members in that area. The UEP is worth $100 million. Its assets are currently frozen by the Utah AG pending lawsuits from ex-FLDS members.


Edited by KMInfinity, Mar 13 2011, 10:25 AM.
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Dax
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Just saw #7. My heart is breaking for a bunch o' people... Don, Heather, Carl across the street, Barb, Lois... and it's all about to break apart even further.

Matt Ross (Alby) has been doing great work.

(I know they have to compress a lot to fit it all into ten episodes, but it really does become distracting that Joey and Wanda aren't mentioned at ALL, when they logically would have to be re:Lois/Frank, or a Henrickson family wedding... it's like every soap that's 'forgotten' to write off characters or make excuses for their absences, but we hold an HBO show to a much higher standard, of course...)

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Dax
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#8. Wow. So many great scenes.

Ben vs. Cara Lynn... so good, but I love his hypocrisy over how much she screwed things up when HE slept with Rhonda...

Poor, poor Margene... love the dual 'cult' accusations (Show definitely reminiscent of his Point Pleasant role as the devil...).

Good to see Fredric Lehne (Kate's marshall on Lost) as Marg's interrogator...

Nikki vs. the pedophile... very good episode for Sevigny, between this and the final plea to Alby... (I can't figure out why Christian Campbell (Greg Ivey) looks so familiar... nothing on imdb pops out as 'oh, that guy'... I watched some of The Book of Daniel, but I don't think that's why I know him... I think he reminds me OF somebody that isn't him, but I'm not sure who...)

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Scorpioww
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Dax, Christian Campbell once played Bobby Warner on AMC if that helps. Or maybe u saw him in the movie Trick?
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Dax
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Nope. Haven't seen Trick... saw that he was on AMC, but I've only ever seen very little of it to peek in on some GL people... still going with 'reminds me of somebody else' more than 'oh, THAT'S why he seems familiar'...
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Dax
Mar 14 2011, 09:54 PM
(I know they have to compress a lot to fit it all into ten episodes, but it really does become distracting that Joey and Wanda aren't mentioned at ALL, when they logically would have to be re:Lois/Frank, or a Henrickson family wedding... it's like every soap that's 'forgotten' to write off characters or make excuses for their absences, but we hold an HBO show to a much higher standard, of course...)

Wait till you see episode 9 ... They did some weird cutting and editing. Great great show. I'm just sorry it's only 10 and almost over. I just don't know how they are going wrap everything up in the next episode. It should be a nail bitter.

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KMInfinity
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Yeah episode nine really felt rushed and out of sync. Like Dax, I understand why but that doesn't mean I like it.

If, by some miracle, this does wrap in a satisfying way I'll be shocked. There are some really good posts over at TWoP that analyze the flaws and hat might-have-been.

I will say this. If they use the cheap trick of killing one of the wives or Bill at this point I will be very disappointed.
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Dax
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>> I will say this. If they use the cheap trick of killing one of the wives or Bill at this point I will be very disappointed.

I don't see any of the four dying. If anybody dies, it's Lois, maybe Frank, or Alby. Cara Lynn's probably a suicide risk, but I don't think that'll happen.

I could see Barb leave the marriage. I could see, with benefit of some time jumping ahead, Bill and Nikki and Marg married to Ana in the future...

It's hard to say how it will end... I guess that's a good thing. There's no 'easy' or obvious way to wrap it up... (the only spoiler I know is that we'll see Sarah and Scott, and I'm glad for that).

I think I'd like for Nikki and Adaleen to know that Alby killed Roman, but I'm not sure even the MOST defeated Alby would confess that...

#9... some great stuff, but yeah, REALLY 'busy'. I'd have liked to have seen what Barb and Marg did with Cara Lynn while Bill ran up to have that (excellent) scene with Nikki... it wasn't long before they came upstairs, too - what about the 'worthless' crying girl in the yard?

Oh, that Nikki/Cara Lynn bedroom scene was devastating...

Rhonda telling Heather was pretty funny, as was Ben's terribly awkward attempt to save the situation.

Final scene in the courthouse was some great suspense.

The convenience store surprise was fun, with Alby and the collapsing water bottles... like the Butch/Vincent moment in Pulp Fiction...



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KMInfinity
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Dax
Mar 16 2011, 12:23 AM
>> I will say this. If they use the cheap trick of killing one of the wives or Bill at this point I will be very disappointed.

I don't see any of the four dying.
Good! That was the spec over at TWoP before 5X09. I understand folks who want the wives to "see" the marriage as a mistake and want them (especially Barb and Margene) to move on without Bill. Those folks, especially, thought that a wife's death would be the impetus for that scenario and a lot of them thought it would be Margene. The general complaint has been that the season has been so rushed they haven't had enough scenes showing us why the wives are each others' support and why they love each other, but I do think that they do.

imo, the last episode showed the family trying to pull together, which was glad to see.
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Dax
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There are so many great scenes, but there's so MUCH story to pack into so little time that it's very disorienting... we've seen a lot of people in back-to-back scenes (though time has passed) when we'd normally get cutaways to OTHER people to ease the transition, but they can't DO that now...

I like it more than I don't.

It's a lot better than last year.

But... as much as I HAVE enjoyed Alby as the Big Bad, the show was better before Roman's death. Good first season... peaked in 2 and 3... pretty disastrous 4... fine 5, but... problematic. I'm hoping to be satisfied with a number of things in the finale, but I'm not EXPECTING... it's hard to see a fitting goodbye to these characters in just another hour (well, seventy minutes, I guess it is).

I really wish they'd been allowed to continue doing 12-show seasons. That hurt them more than anything, I wish. 12/12/10/9/10, total of 53.

On the bad side, it's ending as one of the HBO dramas I'm LEAST enthusiastic with as a whole (maybe in the same category as two-and-done Carnivale, which I liked, but didn't adore) when I've loved pretty much ALL of them (all that are done except Rome, of which I haven't seen Season 2 yet)... True Blood has been 'messy', sure, but I'm optimistic enough that I can go with 'jury's still out'... Treme and Boardwalk Empire are both off to terrific starts, and Game of Thrones LOOKS great (but isn't my 'thing', really, so it might be a harder sell...).

On the good side... 'bad HBO' is still, you know, really, really good. God, this cast... so good. Gah!

Big Love has definitely not been a failure. But in the middle there, I liked it more than I do now.

Some hated on late-run 6FU or Sopranos (or The Wire 5, which also had the unfortunate finish-in-just-ten-shows budgetary directive, but had a very different handicap from Big Love - instead of following the WORST season, it had to follow up on the BEST one...), but not me. I loved 'em all...
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KMInfinity
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Well, I expected the finale to be problematic, but not downright sucky.

Hubby said it halfway thru..."They're making him into Saint Bill and they're gonna kill him." He HATED it, and he's always liked BL more than me...loves Sevigny and Goodwin. I didn't so much mind that they killed Bill, tho I thought that was such a cheap way to reach closure. What I didn't like was the frantic pace and the stifling vision. And imo, this ending means that thematically, the show never found a coherent way to articulate its story.


The sucky stuff~

*Barb not getting baptized.

*Bill dying at the hands of some wimpy deus ex neighbor. geez, better to have Adaleen shoot him, or even hold Alby's story over from last week and have Alby shoot him.

*The scene at Easter services. Creepy. And smarmy. Did I say creepy?

*Ben married to Heather. Unless he's rejected polygamy.

*Sarah back in the church. Which church? The LDS? The Henrickson Polygamy Church with Barb as priestholder?

*The lack of mention of so many things. (Though, that's really a fault of the season and too late now.)

I did love some stuff~

*Frank and Lois. (Mostly)

*Nikki's line, "I don't have a drop of the milk of human kindness in me." And Barb saying, "I know." and hugging her. Made me laugh out loud and tear up at the same time.

*Honey Bee and the open road. I would have LOVED if Nikki (it would need to be her) had said..."Keep driving Barb." and it ended there.

*Bill asking Barb for a blessing.

*The sister-wives sticking together. Did the writers really intend that the marriage would be stronger without Bill? lol


My assessment: the finale exhibited the very worst of the series' major flaw - that despite so many great scenes and characters and actors, the whole was never greater than the sum of its parts. Too bad.



Edited by KMInfinity, Mar 20 2011, 10:32 PM.
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Dax
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>> I didn't so much mind that they killed Bill, tho I thought that was such a cheap way to reach closure.

Not.... 'cheap', but... yes, easy. Ultimate closure. I think it may have been more interesting to see all of... you know, what was going on, 'resolved' in a less FINAL way, but... well, that would have been an ongoing story, and I guess this was the EASIEST way to put a 'The End' on it.

I didn't mind it. But I'm not very 'wow' about it. There was a lot of stuff I liked in the episode, but... yeah, the season/series review I kinda wrote above stands, without much of a need to amend it, post-finale.

>> Barb not getting baptized.

I'm okay with that. I mean, I was on HER side more than Bill's, of course, in their argument, but I DO get that she's not 'her' without her family, and... yeah, it made more sense to me that she would bail last second than go through with it. That WASN'T her church, not really, though they'd let her have the priesthood. But now... well, yeah, convenient wrap-up. Bill's last words are asking her to give him a blessing.

>> Bill dying at the hands of some wimpy deus ex neighbor. geez, better to have Adaleen shoot him, or even hold Alby's story over from last week and have Alby shoot him.

I was kinda glad there wasn't any Alby this week, and I wouldn't have wanted Adaleen to shoot him... I don't mind it being Carl, since he has been there since almost the beginning, and (like Don, so often), he's suffered the consequences of Bill doing what he does... I do feel awful for Pam, though...

>> Ben married to Heather. Unless he's rejected polygamy.

Were they wearing rings? Maybe I missed that... well, dating or married, it's cool that they're together (though I liked the college scene where she was rejecting his apologies - couple good laughs in that)... I don't see Ben in a plural marriage...

>> Sarah back in the church. Which church? The LDS? The Henrickson Polygamy Church with Barb as priestholder?

I think Barb meant 'in their church' (the Henricksons', yes, with Barb in charge), which she was for the baptism of baby Bill...

>> The lack of mention of so many things. (Though, that's really a fault of the season and too late now.)

Joey and Wanda (and Jodean)... bothers me, but oh, well... I know it wasn't THEIR story, but they WERE a big chunk of THIS one, and...

We at least got an offer of condolences from Adaleen to Selma, so we know Hollis is dead now, but... yeah, a very late follow-up to Lois chopping off his arm in the 7th of last year's 9 shows (going unmentioned in 8, 9, and this season..).

Yeah... "I'm spiteful and jealous and mean." "I know." "No, Barb, I'm serious." "I KNOW." Very funny.

>> I would have LOVED if Nikki (it would need to be her) had said..."Keep driving Barb." and it ended there.

Hm. No... good scene, but I wouldn't have liked that as an ending... I do like that she got a Mini (my Mom has one).

I liked the Natalie Maines cover of 'God Only Knows'.

>> that despite so many great scenes and characters and actors, the whole was never greater than the sum of its parts. Too bad.

Unfortunately, mostly agree. 'Lesser HBO', but that's not much of a slam. I will recommend it to friends doing whole-series marathons, but not until after they've seen a bunch of other series first (unless they happen to be big fans of any of the main cast...).

http://www.tvline.com/2011/03/big-love-post-mortem-your-burning-series-finale-questions-answered/
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KMInfinity
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Yeah the music was great, especially "God Only Knows." also heard some Moby but not by Moby. Who'da thunk?
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Dax
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If the wives had all driven off together in the car, that would have been too close to the end of 6FU, with Claire driving away.

And if they were driving over a cliff...
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Dax
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2011/03/big-love-creators-on-the-series-finale-we-never-felt-oh-now-the-women-could-finally-be-free-of-that-.html

http://communityvoices.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/arts-entertainment-living/tuned-in-journal/27834-bye-bye-big-love

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/big-love-watch-q-and-a-with-the-creators/
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KMInfinity
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From the LA interview;

Quote:
 
This is going to sound almost absurd at this point, given the darkness of the last two years of the series, but it has always been our intention to dramatize a family that works and a marriage that works.

And that's the problem. They failed. Most people I know despised Bill and saw him as a very selfish person who needed to grow and change a lot more than he did. Too often Bill represented (Unintended on their part? Are they that unaware of their character?) some of the worst of the sexist, patriarchical, domineering attitudes found in polygamist culture. No, not ever as bad as Juniper Creek, but bad enough that I, personally would be advising my friend Barb to get the hell out.

Given their goal, what should have been central to each season and central to each episode if possible was the dynamic tension between the difficulties of the plural marriage being outweighed by the family love and the idea of the sister-wife support. It was never shown as strongly as it should have been in S4 and S5.

Quote:
 
WS: Yeah, and we never felt like Bill’s death was all of a sudden, oh, now the women could finally be free of that patriarchal jerk.
Unfortunately, that is exactly what a great many people feel.

Supposedly all the writing on the tablet was his prophecy that included a new direction that embraced female priest holders within polygamy. (Apparently Joseph Smith's visions are recorded on a "golden tablet.") Somewhere I saw spec after the finale that Bill should have had his vision early in the season and made that a central struggle rather than the legal and social issues. That could have been interesting.
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Dax
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I liked the show a lot more than Sepinwall, but I appreciate this review, and agree with a lot of it (despite being more generally favorably inclined to the show) - http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/big-love-reviewing-the-series-finale

--

From the LA Times one - >> What happened to some of the supporting characters, like Joey and Wanda?

MO: I think it was addressed at the end of last season, that Joey, on the heels of Bill leading him in Mexico, wandered off in Mexico and kind of never came back.

Gah! That's terrible! (And I do not remember that in the dialogue anywhere at the end of last season... does anyone else?)
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Dax
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Olsen: We looked at "Six Feet Under" and all the finales and for me, personally, although I loved the last 10 minutes of the "Six Feet Under" finale, that montage of how characters met their demise, I wasn't crazy about the fact that Peter Krause's [character] died two episodes before the end.

Fourth from last, actually (and Sopranos did the same with one of their major characters...).

Agree, though, that a multi-episode life-after-Bill epilogue wouldn't have been the right move. But I thought it was PERFECT for the Fishers of 6FU.

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