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Movies; The never ending thread :)
Topic Started: Dec 22 2009, 04:03 PM (5,861 Views)
tgir
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Moore's character is gay to the end--which is exactly what she tells Paul. She has an affair with a person who gives her the emotional support she is missing in her gay marriage to a woman who is quite caught up in her own career, and in being in charge and being the important person in the partnership, who belittles Moore's character frequently. She finds herself attracted to someone in whose face and gestures she sees her children, whom she loves very much. It just happened that that person was male.

I found the gay male porn much more weird. Taken in context of their choice in porn and sex toys, sex with a man just doesn't seem that weird to me since at least in some context, they both find men arousing.

Paul is hardly dimwitted: he made a successful career in the restaurant business which takes a great deal of talent, intelligence, and hard work. He just wasn't a type A academic type, like Benning's character. And he behaved as though he wanted and valued Moore's character, as a woman and as a person. That is a pretty powerful turn on.
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Krystal
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I did not find Benning's character annoying. I want my MD to be an in charge person, as well as my pilot, engineer and architect. Those traits do spill over into other areas of one's life. Moore's character just struck me as one of those whiny women who moans that she is stifled by her partner (male or female), but never would have had the initiative to do anything on her own anyhow.

I still think the guy was a dim wad.
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KMInfinity
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Recently saw this on Turner Classic Movies. What a great Hitchcock film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B70_R1igohw
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Krystal
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Just saw Lincoln. Really good. Great cast. I liked Argo better, but probably cause I related to it more.
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KMInfinity
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Loved Lincoln. Need to see Argo and some others I missed. Never had time over Spring Break that I thought I would.
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Krystal
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Wow, very surprised to really like "Dead Fall" with Charlie Hunnam (sp?) errr Jax. Good suspense, many twists. Gate, you'll really like this one.
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KMInfinity
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really not sure where this goes, but my oh my. I really like and trust Nick Kristof, but the other guy sounds sharp and serious too...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/opinion/sunday/kristof-dylan-farrows-story.html?_r=0

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast.html


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Dax
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I read the first link (but not yet the full piece by Dylan).

Second piece looks long (but I really liked Weide's Woody documentary a few years ago).

I'll come back after reading them both in full.

I have always kinda fallen on the Mia-really-coached-Dylan side of things. I don't think Woody would sexually assault a seven year-old.

I love a lot of his films, but I do think I can separate 'man' from 'work' (I like Polanski's films... but there's no question - he's a rapist).
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Dax
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Dylan's piece is persuasive and sad.

But...

>> But if Mia’s account is true, it means that in the middle of custody and support negotiations, during which Woody needed to be on his best behavior, in a house belonging to his furious ex-girlfriend, and filled with people seething mad at him, Woody, who is a well-known claustrophobic, decided this would be the ideal time and place to take his daughter into an attic and molest her, quickly, before a house full of children and nannies noticed they were both missing.

This is more so. That scenario is just too terribly implausible.

Moses Farrow calling out 'brainwashing' is good, too.

Bottom of the article is really priceless. 'Mia is cuckoo-bananas' is an easy conclusion. (I have a facebook friend that had always taken Mia's side of things, but this article has made him reconsider, and he now has 22 Woody Allen films to catch up on..)
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tgir
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Some background: My husband and I used to see every single Woody Allen movie that played in our college town, which were many, it being a college town. I think I've told the story here before but when we hadn't been seeing each other all that long, he asked me to go with him to see the newest Woody Allen, which was Annie Hall. We always went to the dollar matinees, which was what we could afford if we scraped down deep and we never got popcorn or soda or candy. Which was fine: I never missed that stuff. So, I'm sitting in a fairly packed matinee with this guy I've just started seeing, although we knew each other for some time before that through some volunteer work we did at a crisis center/hotline. Mutual friends had quietly pulled me aside and mentioned to me that Matt was great, but well, a little weird. And he was/is as we all are, but not in any bad way. We both took a class on Carl Jung and used to have a lot of discussions about the collective unconscious, which is weird, I suppose but not in a creepy way. We weren't getting stoned or being too political or anything like that. Our first date was to see a student performance (Indiana University had a wonderful theater program and excellent music school and its operas were reviewed by the New York Times) of Oedipus Rex. If you know the story of Oedipus, you know that was a weird first date. But I digress. We're in this fairly crowded afternoon matinee and suddenly, Matt sits up really straight and says very loudly: "That's my Uncle Donnie! No one told me he was in this movie!" His uncle, the late Donald Symington, portrayed Annie Hall's father and no one had thought to let him know, in case he wanted to see his uncle in a more famous than usual for him movie. Of course, I was shocked/a bit frightened--having your uncle in a Woody Allen play seemed very improbable to me and a number of people turned and glared at us. After the film, he explained his uncle was an actor (I saw him in that film and he also played Helena Bonham's father in Mighty Aphrodite and in a number of plays in our area when we lived in Michigan. He also did some Broadway stuff --The King and I, for one, and also was on at least one soap waaaay back when. Wonderful uncle, very generous and funny.) So, that sort of cemented our minor Woody Allen obsession, which lasted up to the time when the news about Soon Yi. Around this time in my life, I was mostly having/raising kids, trying to complete a degree, volunteering an insane number hours and somehow, I didn't really know much about the molestation allegations, except that the general consensus was that it was just Mia who was angry that Woody had an affair with her daughter. I found Allen's behavior with Soon Yi to be despicable and still do. Not mainly because it was a betrayal of the woman with whom he had a long standing romantic relationship and with whom he adopted and had a biological child with (or thought he was his bio kid) but because it was, to me, a gross betrayal of a girl who had surely seen him in a paternal role since he was the legal father of three of her siblings. It seemed to be extremely inappropriate and grotesque, amounting to emotional incest if not legal incest. Yes, I am aware that Allen and Farrow never married but they did adopt two kids together and had a bio child together, although it seems that the paternity of their son is questionable. They were a family, if a somewhat unconventional one.

I had almost completely forgotten the never very clear allegations that he molested one of his kids and frankly, was never sure which one or he gender of the child. I saw very few films of his after that--only a few, actually since that time, and my enjoyment has always been tainted by the Soon Yi affair. It would have been more tainted if I had been more aware of the molestation charges. As I said, at the time it was portrayed as just Crazy Mia who collected lots of kids freaking out and being all jealous. I sort of bought into that and honestly didn't really think much about it. Surely if the allegations were true, he would have been arrested.

I was that naive. Actually, I think that it was highly unlikely that even if there was photographic evidence that he would have been arrested. He was bigger than Polanski, after all.

Dylan/Malone's letter is heart breaking and actually convincing and completely plausible to me.

The counter piece: not so much. If Allen had been engaging in some molestation or 'inappropriate touching' of Dylan, it would have been a compulsion, not really so much as consciously chosen behavior the way it would be if he had decided to take up with the nanny, for example. As for him 'being on his best behavior' during the separation/legal proceedings: No one is, really. Ever. And frankly, it would have been extremely stressful for all of them, including Allen, and to me, that makes it much more likely that Allen would have crossed a line that he perhaps never imagined crossing before.

As for adoption agencies awarding two children to him and to Soon Yi: so what? He was rich and famous and only an idiot does not think that mattered greatly. Lots of people adopt who should never be allowed near children: Joan Crawford, anyone? to mention one very infamous example. Charges were never brought but there are claims that it wasn't because there was no reason but rather to spare Dylan--something that happens very, very often today and even more 20 years ago. And Mia was just crazy of course--except that she's not crazy at all and seems to have done a phenomenal job in raising children from very diverse backgrounds with some very difficult challenges.

The author of the counter piece seems to believe that he would have known if Woody Allen were the kind of man to molest a child. The arrogance of that stance is overwhelming. My mother in law was molested by her father, as was her younger half sister. When they told their mother (who was divorced from him by that time), they were told not to say such disgusting things! He was quite admired as an intellectual and as a translator and all around famous person in the artsy and intellectual scene in NYC and Europe, particularly France in those days. That whole relationship: my husband's grandmother and her 3 husbands and 3 daughters and all of the very famous and very rich people they hung out with is worthy of a soap and a mini series, actually. Or two. I knew this famous grandfather of my husband who molested his daughter and refused to acknowledge that she was his daughter and was actually quite a filthy old man when he began to lose his marbles a bit. It seems to contradict what my mother in law told us after he died==the molestation== but she was both damaged enough and generous enough that she still adores her mother who refused to believe her and stop the gross stuff and she maintained a relationship with her father and allowed him to be a grandfather to her sons--he was a wonderful grandfather and frankly a very charming, delightful teller of all kinds of stories and teacher of chess and many other things that delight children and an audience. My husband was angry with his mother for telling him. She told him because our youngest son was born about 9 months after the grandfather's death and we gave our son his great grandfather's name as a middle name. I wanted to change the name immediately but husband refused. I had many long, serious talks about him needing to get over his outrage that his mother said mean things about the grandfather he idolized and that she needed and deserved to be believed and supported.

I have no doubt that my mother in law told the truth. It makes too much sense. But none of his many admirers would have believed a word of it.

The molester in my family went on to be ordained as a minister--and to be divorced by two wives who alleged abuse (I am sure they were not lying) and very probably molested his step daughters, although he managed to shut their mother up by pilfering my uncle's estate of all funds. About a year ago, my father's widow (I was married with 4 kids when she and my dad married and although I love her, I don't see her as 'step mother') told me the shocking story she had heard from my (by this time deceased) late in life companion that my female cousin claimed she had been molested by her brother and wasn't that a terrible lie. I told her that I knew as a fact that it wasn't a lie and then told her about a few of the things that I had witnessed and that he had tried to do to me. She was shocked--everyone thought he was such a good Christian who just married greedy women who left him and made up stories because he didn't make a lot of money. The fortunate thing about all of this is that no church was crazy enough to give him a congregation or even charge of a youth group. They must have smelled it on him. Thank heavens. Sincerely: I am grateful. I never told anyone what he tried with me because I was sure I wouldn't be believed or that my father would kill him or both. I just made sure he was never near my sisters. And eventually learned just what his pain threshold was and put an end to his nonsense.

Think about how long the Catholic Church denied, covered up allegations of abuse, even when they knew them to be true. It is completely plausible to me that Woody Allen molested his daughter, and completely plausible to me that he never considered anything he did to be inappropriate.





Edited by tgir, Feb 1 2014, 10:30 PM.
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tgir
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Here's my bit a vanity/claim to nearness of fame by marriage: Uncle Donnie's obit:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/obituaries/bs-md-ob-donald-symington-20130729,0,2682514.story

Part of it is really amusing--the part about starving for theater. He came from an extremely wealthy family who lived off of interest income. The woman he married is my mother in law's half sister, who was also the daughter of an extremely wealthy man. Unfortunately, my mother in law was not the daughter of a wealthy man. Her younger half sister was the daughter of wealthiest of my husband's grandmother's 3 husbands. VERY wealthy.
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Dax
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>> The author of the counter piece seems to believe that he would have known if Woody Allen were the kind of man to molest a child. The arrogance of that stance is overwhelming

I don't see that being in it at all.
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Krystal
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I never liked him or his movies. I thought he was a repulsive whiny ugly creep.

ITA with the fact though that position of power, he could get away with anything. I'd tend to believe the worst with his behaviour toward the daughter wife. Even if Farrow is Looney.
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Krystal
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Hated Annie Hall too and can't even stand the woman star Diane whatever
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KMInfinity
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I am very unable to form an opinion about the whole mess. When I read Dylan's account, especially the full account:

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/an-open-letter-from-dylan-farrow/?module=BlogPost-ReadMore&version=Blog%20Main&action=Click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=Blogs&region=Body#more-12599

I am inclined to believe her.

Robert Weide's article defending Woody Allen is well laid out, and does a good job of reminding people of some of the 'nutty' behaviors of both sides, and reiterates stuff many people keep forgetting (esp. that Woody barely knew Soon-Yi when they developed a relationship - being in Pittsburgh, where Andre Previn was Pittsburgh Symphony director for many years, we got a lot of Previn news regularly) but does sound very biased in its tone and very selective in its scenarios.

The comments to his article are doing a very good job of blasting holes in his arguments in a lot of places.

>>>>>I don't think Woody would sexually assault a seven year-old.
Yet I don't think Mia would manufacture false memories for Dylan, either.

The question of false memories is the big issue. The DSM-V still does not recognize it, but there is a lot of evidence that false memories can be created, especially by 'recovery therapy.' But in this case, Dylan did not 'remember' years later during suggestive therapy and hypnosis. If she is to be believed, she has never felt strong enough to come forward with the truth, but has known all along the facts of the matter. To doubt her story means you must believe that there was a systematic, intense effort to muddle her understanding of the truth. I don't hear, in her story, those 'markers' that suggest such a thing. yeah, Mia was wacky or whatever, but I don't think she was so cruel or insane as to deliberately create this mess out of whole cloth using Dylan.

The scenario Wrede suggests, that the house and the situation was such that Woody really couldn't have hidden the abuse rings very very false to me. It sounds 'logical' but in fact is not at all based on reality. People are blind for a lot of reasons. Busy, willfully blind, distracted, etc.

And a sexual assault only takes minutes. I've been sexually assaulted (depending on the way that phrase is defined) at least four times. In each case, the encounter was less than five minutes. The first time, was on my own street a half a block from where I lived. A man exposed himself and wanted me to touch him. In broad daylight. With neighbors out and about. As I walked home from school for lunch. At 10 years old. I was a suspicious child who read a lot, and was backing up from the car rather than curious. And ran fast, whereupon the police where called. The guy was never caught.

The second time was in a department store (Kaufman's, Krystal) as my high school choir was getting ready to perform. We were all scattered throughout the shopping area on that floor waiting for our call, browsing merchandise, shoppers and crowds everywhere, when a guy approached me, exposed, and tried to push me into a dressing room area, while simultaneously pushing my skirt up. I kneed him, kicked him, which gave me time to get out my switchblade, and walked away. Didn't even tell security, it was too much trouble. Sang with the choir, begged a ride home so I didn't need to catch a bus from downtown, since I was a little shaken up.

In both of the above situations, the guy was a well dressed business type.

The third and fourth times I was a little complicit (I thought in those days) since I was drunk. Once in a parking lot of a bar, once walking home when I jumped out of the car after a fight with my boyfriend. Each time, I was lucky that I had a weapon and was able to fight off the attack. Each time there were people around. I think these creeps count on you being too afraid to scream or fight.

I think sexual assaults are far more common than we realize, and sexual assaults by adults on children as well.
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tgir
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Yeah, each of the times I was assaulted ( multiple by creepy cousin, various during my college years), people were very near by. Except the very first when the cousin made a point of getting me out of sight and out of ear shot. After that, the severity of the assaults varied from pretty gross suggestions while groping some part of my body to what could almost have been an accidental brushing of a breast or actually crotch--except it wasn't accidental and was always followed up immediately by a second 'accidental' touching if I hadn't stalked off immediately. I began to get a reputation in my family for being very crabby and overly dramatic at around this time.

Yes, KMI: I understand the believing that somehow it is your fault. Girls must be perfect at all times because if they are not, if they do something wild like have too much to drink or wear a skirt too short, well, they're asking for it.

I thought that Dylan approached her mother after the attic incident... I also understand putting things out of your mind. I still spent time with my cousin's family, still talked with him. He and his sister were like brother and sister to me. Our fathers (his step father actually) was my father's brother and they were extremely close. And most of the time my cousin was 'normal.' It wasn't until the time I stopped him from breaking his sister's arm (which he followed up by another assault attempt at the earliest possible opportunity) that I made a connection. He also tried to kill me once, in front of several witnesses. But in a way where it could have easily been 'an accident' as the result of horseplay when we were all in the hayloft, where we had been told not to go.
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KMInfinity
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I've been lucky that it was never a 'trusted' family member. That has got to be even tougher.
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tgir
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Toughest parts were that I really did think of him as like my brother and much of the time, he was just the same old guy, so I would begin to think that it was just an aberration, not real. It was crazy making. The worst part was that I was so afraid of a) not being believed. That would have destroyed me entirely. b) what my father and his would do: I know from his sister that his (step)father, my uncle had beaten the hell out of him when she told something he had done c) that it would destroy our family bond. Our families were very, very close. His mother was the sweetest woman I have ever known and was the only source of affection beyond a quick kiss on the cheek when we said goodbye to my grandmother, from a woman that I ever received as a child. My mother was distant towards me (but not towards my sisters), and very critical. There are no photos of her ever holding me on her lap--one at a joint birthday party and she looks very uncomfortable to be holding me at about age 3. My aunt was sweet and warm and affectionate and always happy to see me, always approving, encouraging. It would have devastated me to hurt her. He was her baby boy, and she doted on him. His bio dad was an abusive drunk, which I only know because of what his sister told me briefly. It makes sense, though.

On the other hand, by the time I was actually dating and went to college, I was in no way ever going to take the slightest bit of crap from any guy.

My family still doesn't understand why I 'hate' him. I don't hate him, but I don't want anything to do with him.

It was easier because he was my step cousin, not blood related. And only a year older so no intimidation, although he was much larger and stronger than I was. If it had been an actual brother or father or grandfather--way worse. I hate to even imagine.
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Dax
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Philip Seymour Hoffman is a big loss. Drugs. What a waste...

I haven't seen the movies he got Oscar nominations for, or Capote, for which he won.

Won - Actor - Capote (2005)
Nominated, Supporting Actor - Charlie Wilson's War (2007)
Nominated, Supporting Actor - Doubt (2008)
Nominated, Supporting Actor - The Master (2012)

Saw these before I was aware of him -
Leap of Faith (1992), Scent of a Woman (1992), The Getaway (1994), When a Man Loves a Woman (1994), Nobody's Fool (1994), Twister (1996)

First big impressions made in Boogie Nights (1997) and Happiness (1998) (and then saw PTA's Hard Eight from '96 around that time...)

Now a 'star' - Patch Adams, Flawless, Magnolia, State and Main, The Talented Mr. Ripley, Almost Famous, Big Lebowski...

Sigh. I always liked seeing him.

Upcoming Showtime series Happyish is probably dead now.

Hunger Games 4 wasn't done filming... wonder what they'll have to do...

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Marg
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I agree, Dax, what a huge loss!

I saw Capote and some of the films he was nominated for: Doubt; The Master.

Also liked him in Scent of A Woman and When a Man Loves a Women.

About ten years ago I saw him on Broadway with Vanessa Redgrave in Long Day's Journey Into NIght. He was absolutely brilliant in that!!
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Dax
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One of my friends posted that that Long Day's Journey was his favorite night of theatre ever...
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Krystal
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Well, I never even counted being groped or having someone expose themselves to me as a sexual assault, if so I have been assaulted a hundred times at least, especially in dental school, and yes, by professors too. A hard slap or some profanity usually stopped them in their tracks.. but complaining probably would have got me thrown out.

KM, I Pittsburgh street smart girl you are, I carried a switchblade as well, and mace, in case someone wanted more than a grope. I took self defense classes as well. I had several men expose themselves to me here and there, but no relatives thank God. Once I was little (around 5) ran and screamed like Hell and my mother went looking for the guy with a pot. I am sure she would have brained anyone I pointed out, but he was long gone.

Someone flashed our whole majorette team at a game, but then it probably was just the opposing side trying to get us to drop our batons or whatever.

A guy in Chicago (homeless, harmless) would walk around our hood with his member hanging out. No one really bothered calling the cops unless he took a special interest in following them, then the cops would run him in for an hour and let his dick defrost. By then, he'd forgotten who he was tailing.

As drunk I was at time, especially single and in Pittsburgh, I must have had a guardian angel.
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Krystal
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Interesting about the Woody Allen stuff, I have not read any of it, like I said, I hate him and always have.

Few weeks ago there was a big spread on Mia's son Ronan who is brilliant and doing a lot of good charity work, worth finding if you can. No mention of Woody at all or family dysfunction.

Just heard about Hoffman, what a crime. Sad. Why was he living alone? Did he and wife (other, whatever) have separate places. He always struck me as strange but nice, and very talented.

Last week on the news they said 22 people were dead of heroin overdoses in Allegheny County (Pgh area), alone! They said the herion had been laced with some other heavy shit and this is why.
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KMInfinity
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>>>>>Well, I never even counted being groped or having someone expose themselves to me as a sexual assault, if so I have been assaulted a hundred times at least..

Me either back in the day. It was 'an occupational hazard' for being a woman. But nowadays I definitely do count it as an assault. We were wrong to treat it as expected behavior.

**********

Yeah laced with fentanyl, sometimes 100X lethal dose.

I'm reading it's now everywhere, 100 deaths in England last week, multiple deaths in Baltimore, Ohio...

I wonder if thta's what happened to Hoffmann.
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Dax
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Don't know if he and his girlfriend had separate places, but the news said he was supposed to pick up his kids this morning, and a friend went to check on him when he didn't...

Three kids. So sad.

(Sounds as though MOST of Hunger Games 4 has been shot, but he did have about a week's worth of work left on it...)
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jbrr1212
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The family member molestation cases are so unimaginably complicated and devastating. Since this thread is in the public domain I wont comment beyond that but its a subject I am all to familiar with and still have so little understanding of. I've avoided most of the Woody Allen stuff because to form an opinion I would have to read alot more on the topic and it puts me in a weird mental place to read accounts/stories like this. I will say I almost always believe an accuser especially a child until proven otherwise.

I've never had anyone just randomly expose themself to me. Not sure how I'd react, probably laughter first unless I truly felt threatened, then mace. We had a guy around here a few years back who was a serial flasher, he ran around in a raincoat and just jumped out, flashed, snapped a pic of the persons face and run away. He was eventually caught but it took awhile.

I elbowed a drunk groper in the face last summer. Hubby still laughs about that since he was nearby and I reacted before he even had the chance to. The guy bled alot being drunk with a busted nose. I laughed at his stupidity, maybe he'll think twice the next time.

Hoffman death is so sad. Drugs are everywhere it seems. And yes the heroin problem is terrible here in Ohio too. Its just such a waste. Makes me mad and sad at the same time.
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Krystal
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News report said there were immense amounts of drugs, legal and not legal in Hoffman's apartment. And he has 3 kids that visit him? WTF? Didn't the mother know this? What if one of the kids got into this shit? Particularly now when some of the herion seems to be lethal!!!!
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Krystal
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Re: The Woody stuff. I know people can say terrible things about each other when they are getting a divorce. My ex told my parents I was gay (!!!!), being that I had several BOYfriends at the time, would have been a shot....But I tend to believe an accuser as well. And when the person has a history of bad or shady behavior, well that just piles it on.
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tgir
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/01/showbiz/dylan-farrow-open-letter/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Quote:
 
A former prosecutor who decided against pressing charges in the case declined to comment on the details in Dylan Farrow's letter Sunday.
"As a prosecutor I really can't comment on the substance of the statement of this now young woman. As a father of a child not too much older than this young woman, I can only say I hope she finds some peace and solace in the way she's expressing herself," former Connecticut State's Attorney Frank Maco said. "I hope she had access to my written statement of decision. My statement is as valid today as it was 20 years ago."


In 1993, Maco -- who's since retired -- told reporters he believed there was probable cause to arrest Allen. But he said he decided not to press charges, with Mia Farrow's support, "rather than exposing the child to possible harm."
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KMInfinity
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That's how I remember it - Mia decided not to push forward to spare Dylan...
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