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Mad Men; Season 3
Topic Started: Jun 28 2009, 10:55 AM (3,352 Views)
tgir
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I think that Don uses sex as a way of validating his status and that he sees sex with women other than Betty as a natural perk. I also think that he sees his womanizing as something inescapable, as part of his inheritance from his father who dallied with other women.

Can Betty grow? I hope that she can. Somehow, as weird as I find it, I like her a tiny bit after the last episode. I agree that she wants the romance of the affair, but I think that's what she wants: the romance, not necessarily the sex. I think she sees an affair with a powerful man as an affirmation of her beauty, her status as a beautiful woman.

I haven't seen all of this episode. It seems odd to me that she seems to like the baby more than she does her older children.
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KMInfinity
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tgir
Oct 12 2009, 07:12 PM
It seems odd to me that she seems to like the baby more than she does her older children.
It's to do with her father, I think. She insisted the baby be named Eugene after her father and somehow that's created a *special* bond there.
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tgir
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Anybody watch last night? What did you think? Some nice surprises, I think. I liked Betty much more than I had before.
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amy
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So, so, SO fricking glad to see Betty ask demand answers from Don! I am not surprised to see her stay, but am glad that she now has all the answers. I was waiting for the teacher to come in the house, wondering where Don was. But then I realized, as much as she is blurring those lines, she values her job and wouldn't risk it.

Loved seeing Joan hit her shithead of a husband with the vase!! Go, Joanie!!!!

I think Roger may actually be in love and respectful of his child bride! Unfortunately, I don't think she is going to keep feeling the same!
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KMInfinity
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Once again, what fascinates me is how the writers can show so many flawed characters and make me feel sympathetic towards them (yes, even Pete). Roger became much more layered with this episode. So sweet he really believes this chickie is *the one* and is determined to be faithful. I wonder how much of Roger is supposed to parallel or predict Don's future?

Once again it's clear Don loves Betty....but.....

I even feel kinda sorry for Mr. Joan (can't recall his name) because you just know what's lurking around his corner.....

What is really making itself felt, imo, is why the 60's were such a huge cultural shift, why it was almost inevitable that so many people would end up doing so much soul searching and questioning....
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tgir
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OK, I have to admit to being very mean, but I didn't/don't feel sorry for Mr. Joan. I am sure what is coming, more or less and assuming he survives, I am really sure he will be feeling sorry enough for himself that he won't need any of my sympathy.

I cheered when Joan broke that vase on his head.

I was also thrilled that Betty confronted Don and insisted he explain. And good for her that she did that and that she is being supportive. Ultimately, this will serve to bring them closer, which is a good thing.

You could have knocked me over with a feather when Roger refused to cheat on his child-bride. I suppose he's finally decided he had better hold on to whatever bit of good thing he has. And likely his divorce cost him a lot: not likely he could afford that again. But yes, I think in his way, he loves his wife. Now, if it had been Joan propositioning him, all bets would be on Joan walking away with Mr. Roger, not that little child.
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KMInfinity
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tgir
Oct 27 2009, 07:35 PM

I cheered when Joan broke that vase on his head.

well, I did that too.... :firemad:

I do hope Joan is soon back at S-C. I think you're right - Joan and Roger are still to come. The way he spoke about her shows he really does care for her.
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Krystal
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Wow, I was gone a few days and have not watched yet, but this format is pretty glam. Will post on MM soon, will watch it tomorrow!
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blosslover
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Yes seeing the beginning of the fall out of the Dick/Don reveal with Betty was a good thing. I was hoping we would get that. Having Dr. Harris be such a crummy surgeon and then go into the military made me feel sorry for poor Joan. Was very happy over the Joan/Roger interaction even over the phone.
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Krystal
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Wow, just watched it, powerful show. You can almost feel sorry for Don and understand why he kept his background a secret.

Funny Joan's hsb joins the military just in time for Vietnam, they did send docs there so maybe that's where he will go.

Didn't know if Roger did not sleep with his old girlfriend because he was being faithful or because he was over her. Still can't stand his new wife, and would love to see him with Joan.

Felt soory for Don's girlfriend and was holding my breath that she would not walk in the front door.
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Marg
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I was pleased to see that Betty finally learnt the truth about Don's past and confronted him about. He should have trusted his wife enough to tell her himself. I was surprised Betty decided to stay with him, but like that she is being supportive.

I didn't feel sorry for Don's girlfriend. She doesn't care about anyone but herself...she was only crying out of fear for losing her job. She told Don that she didn't care about his wife or his job!

Hopefully Roger will get Joan back into the company, so she can get away from that terrible husband!!


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Krystal
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Wow, what a show! I thought last week was exhausting but this one really topped off. I wondered when/if they would cover the Kennedy assasination. I have to say watching the old clips of Cronkite and the other news guys really brough tears to my eyes. I was a little girl and remember sitting in front of the TV for days my mother and I crying our hearts out.

So Betty decides she does not love Don? or is she just thinking this other guy will be the answer to her prayers. I am sure when he gets her as well as the kids it won't all look so rosy.

Poor Roger, a dimwit wife and that brat of a daughter. Have to say the ex wife behaved well, but of course, he still has a thing for Joan.
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KMInfinity
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These characters are so complex I cannot even begin to predict where they'll end up..... I do think Betts is being honest and finally trying to make some sense of things on a deeper level than her usual superficial one. The discovery of Don's past and the Kennedy assassination have jammed her into a place where she's really reflective.

I don't think she and Don can be married and grow as people. I think they're trapped in the personas they've created for themselves and can't get free to where they can develop an honest relationship. And again, it's clear Don loves Betty....and she doesn't love him.

Still not sure what's what with Peggy and Duck....kinda creepy....

So much on so many levels...can't believe the finale is next Sunday.
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tgir
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Quote:
 
do think Betts is being honest and finally trying to make some sense of things on a deeper level than her usual superficial one. The discovery of Don's past and the Kennedy assassination have jammed her into a place where she's really reflective.


I see it the opposite: I think that Betty's dalliance/whatever with the politician is her running away from having to deal with a huge rift (or at least two, really: finding out that Don has lied about who he is and her father's death) by running into the arms of some guy she surely can't care for--but who has more status, perhaps more money, is more 'daddy-like,' at least in terms of age (he looks old enough to be her father, almost) instead of a messy relationship with Don.

I don't know that Betty really loves anyone except Betty. Don has a huge, gaping hole inside him, and he tries to fill it up with making women fall in love with him, or at least, fall into bed with him. Men, too, in a way. What is advertising except a kind of seduction? Betty's emotion/grief over Kennedy's death seemed genuine, and so little about her seems genuine to me. She is as shut down as Don in many ways: more. She's all frozen inside.

I really am always at war with myself over this show. I am old enough to remember Kennedy's assassination (Like everyone my age or older, I know exactly where I was when I learned Kennedy had been killed: I was sitting in Mrs. Hunt's second grade classroom. I had no real idea what it all meant. My parents (very conservative) hated Kennedy, so I had a vague idea that they'd be glad (they weren't) and didn't quite realize why everyone was crying.) and I remember a bit about how people were, how women related to their children and their husbands and neighbors. Certainly we were at a far, far lower social/economic level than the Drapers: barely middle class, by the slimmest of threads and very mid-western. My mother certainly wasn't the warmest person in the world, and my dad sure did run things on the outside, anyways, but neither my mother nor any of the women I remember looked to men to explain anything or to rescue them from anything. The whole silly, silly bride being sent to her room by her mother: I can't imagine. To me, this is a very skewed version of the gender dynamics. After all, the women in the generation before raised their families during the Great Depression and WWII, and likely lost loved ones during WWI: they were certainly not little hot house flowers who could only manage to survive if some man protected them. No, the women I remember looked to their husbands for paychecks, to help discipline the children, to set rules. But really, women ran things, found ways to get around the less sensible notions of their husbands. They, after all, were the ones who had to make the grocery money last to the next pay check, keep the kids reasonably clean and well behaved, etc. My MIL was from a very privileged background and from what I gather, this is how it worked, on a different scale.

I think the way that many of the women are being depicted just grates at me: I was a kid, but that's not how I remember things.
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blosslover
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When I look at the gender roles on Mad Men, I wonder was it truly that bad back then as a man's world or if it is skewed?

I think Don having to tell Betty the truth changed the relationship for him, but Betty's illusions being shattered makes her feel the need to move on and if Henry can help her, she may just do so.

Amazed they continued the Roger/Joan thread, I hope it isn't just a tease.
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Krystal
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In the first place I cannot believe that there is only one left!!!!!!

Regarding the women on the show, sometimes I think they are portrayed accurately and sometimes not. Betty is a cold fish, she has made remarks about being horrified at aging. She has nothing to offer but her youth and beauty. She is not a good mother, she is not at all interesting as a person. There are women like her today, I see them at the gym, pretending to be all about their kids when in reality they just drop them off at activities so they can have their nails done and their spa appointments.

Joan is very strong, but women were expected to not only marry but marry well then let the husband bring home the check. However, Joan is very solid and I think we'll see her survive better and grow than say Betty.

Peggy does personify the woman who wants the career, to prove that a woman can do it. yet she is sleeping with the Duckster! Why? He's an old creep! But maybe just because she can?

Rogers daughter is a brat, and I can see her mother treating her as so. She is immature and needed to be treated as a child as she was actingl like one. I would have kicked her ass.

Man I am BUMMED that there is only one more!!!



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KMInfinity
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tgir
 
I see it the opposite: I think that Betty's dalliance/whatever with the politician is her running away from having to deal with a huge rift (or at least two, really: finding out that Don has lied about who he is and her father's death) by running into the arms of some guy she surely can't care for--but who has more status, perhaps more money, is more 'daddy-like,' at least in terms of age (he looks old enough to be her father, almost) instead of a messy relationship with Don.
I actually totally agree with this and don't think we're too *opposite* here...I just didn't explain myself completely----Don's past and the assassination have jolted Betty so that she is facing the facts that her life is a mess. She isn't happy and is tired of pretending. BUT you're right, her solution to this is to run away rather than deal with things. Though I do wonder if she has enough intuition and sense to realize how unfaithful Don has been and so feels justified in simply *throwing in the towel.*

I was in kindergarten during the assassination. The whole family was glued to the TV for that entire period. I vividly recall the funeral procession.

tgir, imo the gender roles were very different based on socioeconomic class. We were poor....barely working class poor. And the women in our class worked hard and seemed to take less of a back seat to the men than is shown on MM. I haven't done hard core gender studies, but what I've soaked up here and there suggests that the 50's actually represented a backlash in female roles, especially for middle class and wealthy. Women in the 20's and 30's and 40's were more outspoken and more *modern* than a certain slice in the 50's and early 60's. Yet those women are the ones who are presented as *typical* when I think they were not. There have been some on MM who show the alternative, but the tone suggests they were rarer than perhaps they really were. I'm thinking of the Jewish woman who owned the Dept store especially. As Bloss said, it's skewed. Now, whether MM is skewing deliberately, or merely reflecting the skew of the times, I'm not sure. It's a fine line for sure.

Krystal, I've said in past season threads (or upthread?) that my dream finish for the show is to have Peggy and Joan running Sterling-Cooper. :cheers1:
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Krystal
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My mother was a welder in WW2. A lot of women took over men's jobs as all the guys were fighting overseas. After getting a taste of real work, they were sent home and told to have kids when the men cam home. Most did, hence the large numbers of baby boomers.

I think the 50's were more oppressive to women than earlier times too.

Wealthy women did get an education, but very few actually worked at the profession they were educated in.
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tgir
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I know that for my parents, who grew up very poor during the depression, it was a true accomplishment for my mother to be able to stay home to raise their children: they had had to grow up much on their own.

I don't know how skewed my viewpoint is. Men had most of the political power and controlled most of the wealth. Perhaps my viewpoint is skewed because mostly I'd listen to women talk, but again, it wasn't just listening to my mother and her friends but also listening to my mother in law who grew up quite wealthy and privileged: Men controlled the money, but women ran the households and women exerted control over their husbands in some ways, as well. I never got the sense that women were weaker, or felt they were weaker.

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Manifan
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From what I remember, women WERE just as repressed -- and oppressed -- as Mad Men is portraying. And that went on until the Women's Movement. Women were expected to stay home and raise babies. If they did work they were secretaries, teachers, or telephone operators. Finding a woman in charge in the corporate world was very rare. And back then divorce was a no-no. Women who sought one were usually thought of as trollops.
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tgir
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I was speaking more of women's attitudes: I don't remember any woman who looked to men to give her guidance on the meaning of anything or even permission much. There was some of that on a superficial level: the woman down the street was married to a nasty little man who liked to boss her around and brag about how he was always in charge. And his wife always soothed him, patted him on the shoulder and agreed with whatever he said--and then did whatever she thought was the right thing to do, always letting him believe that he was in charge, when in fact, she was.
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Krystal
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I don't think women looked to men for opinions but they still waited on them! my mother is a bitch on wheels but I still recall her washing and ironing her brother's shirts and cooking for them like the mopes were incapable of doing it themselves.
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Manifan
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OMG, Betty left the kids alone??? The maid is going to be taking care of them while she's gone for 6 weeks?? It boggles my mind.

Great episode this evening. I was really hoping they would track Sal down. I am SO bummed he is gone. There was so much story there to be told and I'm really let down that they dropped it.
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blosslover
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Once it was said that Roger was taking Lucky Strike, I knew Sal couldn't go with them sadly. I hope that Carla calls Don, so Sally and Bobby don't go without any parent for so long. Glad that Pryce was along for the ride.
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tgir
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I'm sure that Don knows that Betty has gone to Reno. He may love his kids but he's not going to actually give up time he could be working to 'babysit' the kids. I'm sure he'll drop by for weekends, maybe even spend some nights at the house.

I hate hate hate hate that Betty is divorcing Don. It's odd: I don't think she's a very nice person, I don't think they have a good marriage, but I still hate the divorce. Maybe because I like seeing Don interact with the kids and I think after the divorce, there will be much less of that, much less of Betty, much less of their interactions. Which wouldn't be such a big deal, except that after the big reveal of Don's true identity, I saw potential for them to have a different kind of marriage, a different kind of relationship. And her obvious love for the baby gave me some hope that she might be more warm and loving to the other children. I feel like that is just going to be dropped, and it's a shame. Here's my big prediction/hope: That old geezer she's abandoning Don for will drop dead of a heart attack. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. I mean, what a bloodless pairing.

Glad that they're splitting off and re-forming their own agency. I think they brought the right people, dramatically speaking, and it is a perfect way to get Joan back in the mix. Pete's wife is a good asset to this. Before, she was marginalized. Now, she's actually an asset.

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Marg
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I felt quite sure that Betty was going to divorce Don...so, wasn't surprised by this. As horrible a parent as she has been, while Don has been the more concerned, caring parent of the two. He never trusted Betty enough to be honest about 'who he really was' and continued ongoing affairs, as well. I think their relationship had to be about more than her becoming a loveable, caring mother. If their marriage was to turn around, both of them would have had to change.

Either way the children are going to suffer, and it is sad to see them left alone with the maid.

I liked Roger, Don, etc forming their own agency, and bringing Joan along with Peggy on board. I particularly liked the way that Peggy stood up to Don...she was tired of him treating her in that arrogrant manner.
Edited by Marg, Nov 9 2009, 06:57 PM.
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tgir
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He never trusted Betty enough to be honest about 'who he really was' and continued ongoing affairs, as well. I think their relationship had to be about more than her becoming a loveable, caring mother. If their marriage was to turn around, both of them would have had to change.


Yet, he finally told her (of course, after she confronted him). I think Don is in the process of changing; I think Betty filing for divorce ensures she won't change, and in a different way, ensures that Don won't either. I think that it would have been good to see them both change, together. I guess I was just disappointed. After Betty seemed supportive of Don, when he initially told her about his origins, I had such glimmerings of hope. If they are divorced, I don't really see any future for Betty on the show, and that is a shame.
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KMInfinity
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Just an awesome episode. Loved so many moments...

tgir, I wonder too how they'll hold onto Betty if she and Don are divorced. Wonder if you're right and Henry drops dead. What else could cause Betty and Don to reunite?

Mani, I too was hoping Sal could come back. Maybe still, somehow?????
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Dax
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So, so good. Like a perfect crime movie caper...

Sal: We had a little tease there when there was a need to get into the art department (ala there being no surprise as to who Roger went to go and call), but Don kicked in the door instead...

No, Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce has Lucky Strike, so they cannot bring on Sal (unless Gardner changes his mind for some reason...). The soon-to-be-McCann owned 'Sterling Cooper' CAN safely rehire Sal now...

I don't know that we have reason to panic that we've lost ANY of our regulars, though 'we' have left Paul and Ken behind, and Sal wasn't in the last four episodes... and I expect to continue to see Betty, though divorced from Don...

Brilliant season (I've just watched 4-13 over the last couple weeks, so sorry I haven't been more conversational here...). Loved every minute, can't wait for more...

The intensity of that bedroom confrontation... Don calling Betty a whore... like the great Tony/Carmela fight in the season finale of 4, but, you know, less violent...

So many funny lines, but my favorites were 'Peggy, can you get me some coffee?' 'No.' and Roger's response to Harry's 'You're kidding' with 'You're right, we are. Happy birthday.'

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Krystal
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I just watched too and it was truly brilliant. Boy am I going to miss this show.

I thought the bedroom scene was very hard, neither of these people are faultless. Still I think Don is better father than Betty a mother. She just hits the road with her new sugar daddy. What? I hope he turns out to be a real dud.

Loved them calling Joan. and Dax, I also really loved the coffee line.

Hope we do see more of the rest of the cast, including Sal.
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