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Recent Isses - Deal with the Shadowfel
Topic Started: 12 Mar 2012, 12:38 (954 Views)
Aurzel
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Andrew Kyriacou
Father Francis you have brought up valid points, I will attempt to address them while remaining as civil as possible.

1) I will make no remark about the 'light of civilization' as my experience in the fey woods has been severely lacking, however it appears that they are already a civilized people. Would you be willing to bow down because two other civilizations have mobilized against you and say you must accept a new rule? Indeed as Lord Varis pointed out, what if the devils were the ones we were dealing with?

2) Believing everyone has their time to die is one thing, however; the shadowfel's belief in death seems to take that to an extreme whereupon they will not attempt to save their own lives in dire situations because they believe it is their turn to die. Would you want an Athesia that curls up meekly and accepts 'fate' when we face a deadly situation? As for the Vanir, are you not yourself a servant of them. Were you not brought back from death on more than one occasion by one of their kind? It seems there's more to your affiliation with the Vanir than wanting to simply remove them.

3) Athesia has already been having to deal with what forces the shadowfel have been sending at us, what if they take the fey woods with out help and then turn on us? We'd be weakened from the effort and then have to face them on an even larger front, we have no idea how larger their force is. They may well help us, on the other hand they may give us 'help' which will end up hurting us; bad information, an army being allowed within our borders could wreck havoc if it wants to.

4) This is true, however it's also possible that they will feed us bad information.

5) I think they will care if armies of Athesian and shadowfel troops start massacring the people there.

6) If we can think of it, they can think of it. In my opinion we have more to lose if this deal goes bad than we have to gain if it works out.

I do know you have addressed one or two of these points yourself, I simply answered each of your pro's in turn.

(Edit after seeing Francis last post): You claim the devils are not capable of such a deal, not intelligent enough. It made me chuckle. The phrase 'know your enemy' comes to mind as you clearly do not.
Edited by Aurzel, 12 Mar 2012, 17:23.
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Dargan Drosilan
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Declan Doyle
Quite simply at this stage the shadowfel have promised to help us by SELLING OUT their current allies and factions we war against. No matter the current apparent benefit their actions already prove that they will do the same to us and giving them any foot hold is a terrible idea let alone one the size they demand.

As I understand from merric the shadowfel and the fey are two sets of beings who exist on separate planes and have no real knowledge of each others presence save to say the fey have instructed their Othed to protect the lands against invaders. It could be beneficial to attempt to force these two factions into some kind of treatise if it is at all possible though I fear that such actions would achieve little other than increase the number of squabbling voices.

I am an unbiased voice in this discussion, I care for neither the fey or they shadowfel, I dislike the open contempt of the fey and their disregard for the lives of their subjects, I dislike the open hostility from the shadowfel and their military attempts at expansion though the way I see it these two factions are an anathema to each other. The fey flitting and insidious and the shadowfel cold and uncompromising.

I hate both sides of this filthy coin equally but I must push to the truth of this matter, as hateful as they are we are not currently at war with the fey and they have no forces arrayed against us, the fey are also a shattered and fractioned force far more interested in their own superiority over each other than fighting us. The shadowfel present a unified singular front of innumerable strength and force and we are currently warring against their forces on a battlefront.

The simple fact is the fey are NOT currently a threat to athesia and should they vanish much of the residents of the woods would be lost to us, not simply for the Othed but also for the fact that the fey are what keep those woods functioning (if you can call it that) and the woods would be come and inert and dark place forever closed to expansion and exploration for fear of us provoking a sleeping giant.

The shadowfel ARE currently a very grave threat to athesia and are only willing to help because of the lands they seek at this time (which will not sustain an expanding empire indefinitely) and to my knowledge are only helping because they currently think that we are factions arrayed against the "heroes of athesia" as we had to used bluffing ad deceit to win through the deal making process.

The fact is that we will have to fight the shadowfel one day but treatise with the fey is actually possible one day. Therefore this cannot be a discussion. The choice is to sacrifice a potential ally for time against a greater foe or to face this threat face on and entreat said ally for actual support.

My answer is thus, those already allied with these fey take this troubling series of events to them let them know that should they seek as we seek to defend these lands against invaders then we will stand with them and so hope to strengthen our bonds and help them solve their internal disputes when the time comes, but know that we must provide a unified front against this invading force to repel it from these shores...Our shores.
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Varis Liadon
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Chris Burton
Just a couple of corrections there. A. Devils are VERY intelligent and yes we can negotiate with them. We don't because they are evil beings that only care for themselves and care not for the people they trample.....much like the Shadowsworn.

Another one is that I have not received any power from the Fey of any kind. The reason I took the position of Oathbound was to establish a path of diplomacy between Athesia and they Fey. And yes, at the moment it seems to have not gone anywhere but in the same respect the fact that I am Oathbound has not hindered my responsabilities at all.

Ok, corrections over for now

As a strategic point. This is a deal, not an allience. Basically, we will beat up the Oathbound, give them the woods and wait until the decide to take more lands....then fight them. Yes we may gain power in that time but they might too. And they won't have to worry about invasions from different directions.

We can get imformation about our enemies but then what stops them from giving our enemies information about us. Will will have as much of an advantage as them.

Finally, who will take command of any troops they offer? Personally I would not want any of them staying in my lands as the situation stands.

Now I understand a need for diplomacy, hell i preach it as much as you do. But this isn't an allience against a common foe. It's a deal to backstab someone who isn't againt us yet and the fey can't see the Shadowsworn but they can see us, and they will see us wiping out their Oathbound. Any lands we do have in the Fey Woods will have to be evacuated out of fear of reprisal from the fey.
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Flint Flagon
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Robert Lower
Even discussing this deal of appeasement makes us look weak to the Shadow fey and will give our current enemies further reason to hate us.

By opening this door of diplomacy you are closing many more. Enough said?
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Ceryndra Silverflame
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Alice Morris
Before I begin, I would like to emphasise that I may have not heard all there is to this deal, and so some of my points may seem confused, however I feel I would like to say a few things. I am against this deal, and I praise the words of the Faigh and Asthvan in response to the suggestion, the Faigh for his passion and Asthvan for his careful consideration of the situation from both sides. I will endeavour not to repeat too much of what has already been said by others, other than to refer to others' points.

Firstly I would like to point out that this deal will not last forever. The Sorrow King, as Slath calls him, will eventually want to expand into our kingdom, and where will he be when he wants to do so? Right on our doorstep, with knowledge of our armies and probably a formidable force behind him. The Shadowfel would be able to invade whenever they chose, and we would have very little warning to mobilise troops before this happened.

On the other side of this, what happens when our lords want to expand into the lands we give to the Shadowfel? I can imagine that they would want to eventually, especially Marcellus. Tell me, Francis, if the deal was to be made in the Dark Plains, that you would not complain when you were unable to expand (as you complain so much about Dark Plains lands already).

Next, if we allow the Shadowfel dominion in the Fey Woods, the place will become unrecognisable, as Dargan points out. The Woods will become a battleground, a warzone, and if we take it back from the Shadowfel we will have to help rebuild. Why allow it to be destroyed like this to cause more problems and work for ourselves later on. On top of this, innocent civilians will be killed or imprisoned. We have sworn to protect Athesia, and the people of the land are Athesia. I will not stand by and allow for the people of the Fey Woods (or the Oathbound) to be killed.

We will also be making, as almost everyone has realised, an enemy of the Fey. I have not experienced a huge amount of them, however from what I have seen I do not think bringing them upon ourselves will be a good idea. They can be formidable foes, as we have seen from our allies in battle. We already have so many enemies, why turn a possible ally into another?

Finally, I simply wish to say that I think Francis' idea of gaining some 'breathing room' means that we would instead bury our heads in the sand and ignore the problem until later. We are heroes of Athesia, not lazy or cowardly people who refuse to do anything to help those they have sworn to protect.

I refuse to stand with those who endorse this deal, and I do not understand why we are even having this discussion.
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Konrad Luthor

I'm afraid to say that I will not be getting any friends from making these points, but I feel someone must state them.

The first is this-when did it become our task to worry about the philisophical opinions of others, after all while the shadowfel might be of the opinion that death is permanent and that while they might allow themselves to be slain if they believe it is there time, that does not mean that we have to; after all this is a one time deal and not adoption of their views.

There was the point made that certain members of the council are being hypocritical in their endorsing this arrangement, as while they may accept a deal with the shadowfel they would not with other factions. To this I would like to point out two things, the first being that the council has made arrangements with both the storm elementals and the drow; while I do not have full knowledge of these arrangements it would seem that such a system could be replicated though I freely confess my ignorance in this matter. The second point I would like to make is that there is still the possibility of changing the terms of this agreement and that all members of teh council should keep that in mind.

Finally I wish to address the question of whether those outside of our lands should be given the same priority as those who dwell within our lands, after all we do not have the capabilities to support and assist all of those who live on this continent.
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Aurzel
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Andrew Kyriacou
In regards to the alliances the council have made with the elementals and the drow: Both alliances were and are made to help deal with an internal matter that would directly benefit Athesia. Accepting this deal with the shadowfel would only be comparable if they were requesting aid to deal with some internal struggle amongst them.
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Tacitus Ajax Liber Silvanus
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I feel that I must add my weight to this discussion. I confess that I know little about the Fey or those from the Shadowfell. What I do know is that I will not assist those that want to remove my comrades, and have not hid their desire to invade a nation, which whilst not under our protection, are still deserving of it. If it is the will of the Council to agree to this deal, then I will stand, solo if I must, against the might of the shadowfell.
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Merric Thunderlute
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My opinion on this deal - NO!
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Fulgrim Ironheart

Merric Thunderlute
12 Mar 2012, 20:46
My opinion on this deal - NO!
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