| Recent Isses - Deal with the Shadowfel | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 12 Mar 2012, 12:38 (953 Views) | |
| Varis Liadon | 12 Mar 2012, 12:38 Post #1 |
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Chris Burton
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Everyone will know that I am fully against this alliance as I too am Oathbound and therefore you will be agreeing to kill myself and Merric. If anyone has any different thoughts and feelings about this then please tell me here so we can come to a combined decision |
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| Fulgrim Ironheart | 12 Mar 2012, 12:47 Post #2 |
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Alright first Im going to agree that this deal is a bad thing BUT We wouldnt have to kill you, personally if we went down that route it would be much simpler to sunder the power flowing into the oathbound, some would die from natural causes. Also as Arianna constantly reminds me We never have to kill them, simply stop them fighting. |
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| Asthvan | 12 Mar 2012, 13:05 Post #3 |
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Benjamin Smith
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I am going to lay out what information I have to explain my decision here, so apologies in advance if this gets long; I believe that explanations of reasoning should help keep this civil, and thus are greatly worthwhile. Firstly, the benefits of allying with the Shadowfel: > We will receive a number of troops for our use. > The Shadowfel have promised autonomy to our lands in return for autonomy in the ones they wish to take, removing a potential foe. > The Shadowfel will provide information to us on our enemies from those they are sending to them as emissaries. However, there are also consequences to allying with the Shadowfel: > We will be required to fight the oathsworn (since by being oathsworn they literally cannot choose to just give up on , and quite likely the fey as well; the fey are tolerable since they seem much like the wind or the weather, namely that they are still dangerous but they can also be kind and do not actively seem to hate us. > Two of the members of Athesia are oathsworn (Varis and Merric); I do not know if we would need to kill them or if they could resist the fey's call to arms, but I suspect that becoming an oathbreaker would be very unpleasant as well. > The shadowfel have suggested that they are quite happy to betray their deals; it means they may well feed us false information or use their emissaries to spy on us to our ultimate detriment. > This is not an alliance, but a deal; once it is concluded, the shadowfel will be on our doorstep with a solid grip onto the Fey Woods, likely resulting in border tensions at the least. > We do not know their intentions with the people of the Fey Woods that they will claim; we may end up having to break the deal simply because of their actions towards the common people. There are few benefits to refusing the alliance, simply as it maintains the status quo. However, there is one I can think of: > The fey may well show some form of gratitude or otherwise to Athesia for standing by them and theirs. However, there are some consequences: > The shadowfel will likely attack us to try and take the holdings they want if we refuse them. > The shadowfel attack will likely draw in other threats meaning we would be fighting on multiple fronts. > The oathbound may be required to fight the shadowfel, possibly even over other threats. In addition, should the fey get involved they may force the oathbound into strategies and battles that would normally oppose; this may harm Athesia should Varis or Merric be forced into such actions. On balance, I believe that the shadowfel deal's benefit to Athesia is not sufficient to counteract the harm it could do; it appears to me that it would be much better to refuse the deal. |
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| Aurzel | 12 Mar 2012, 13:32 Post #4 |
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Andrew Kyriacou
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I also am against this alliance, Asthvan has listed many of the reasons I also have against this alliance. Further their promise of troops to aid gives us no assurance that those troops will remain loyal once they are within our borders. They may act as spies and hindrances when or should the shadowfel decide we have outlived our usefulness. The shadowfel have been openly hostile to use while the fey have not. Further the shadowfel seem to be focused and unified in their course whereas the fey can be fickle and their winter, summer court squabbles usually keep them preoccupied enough to not be bothered by us. |
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| Konrad Luthor | 12 Mar 2012, 14:04 Post #5 |
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Well it seems I'm going to be one of the few to support this deal, my reasoning is thus: as Asthvan has pointed out we will gain access to shadowfel soldiers to use in the feywoods, as well as information on a number of our enemies. I feel there are other potential benefits as well that people may be overlooking, namely the oppertunity to discover more about the Shadowfel's backers and the shadowfel themselves along with any possibility of equiping our armies with the weapons that these backers are providing. A seperate note is the fact that the Shadowfel do not appear to be antagonistic to the fey themselves but to the people who live in the feywoods, correct me if I have misunderstood, but does this not mean that WE have to attack the Fey in any manner, indeed we coulod simply leave the Shadowfel ignorant if indeed they are. To address the concerns about the Shadowfel ambassadors spying on Athesia, this is siomething we should expect from any ambassador due to the fact that intelligence gathering makes perfect political sense. Indded should we send our own ambassadors they could do the same for Athesia. Finally I would address the idea that the Fey would be grateful to us if we refuse this deal; I have serious doubts that they would do anything to help us, in fact I doubt they care about Athesia at all one way or the other. |
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| Aurzel | 12 Mar 2012, 14:13 Post #6 |
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Andrew Kyriacou
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I agree with you that the fey would properly not even take note if we refuse the shadowfel but surely we should (or rather those of us who are already oathbound) talk to the fey about this situation and perhaps they may be prepared to deal with us. Even the fey should see the threat the shadowfel present to the fey woods. In regards to the shadowfel not being antagonistic to the fey, they wish to remove the oathbound resistance. That would be the equivalent to saying: Well the shadowfel are attacking the people of Athesia not us heroes of Athesia therefore they're not being antagonistic to us. |
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| Verak Tibor | 12 Mar 2012, 14:21 Post #7 |
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Charlie Lloyd
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To all those who support allying ourselves with the Sorrow King, I have one important thing to say: HE IS CALLED THE SORROW KING! Are we, great heroes of Athesia, sworn to uphold the vision of a better, safer, happier land, going to hand over a whole chunk of the Fey Woods to a being the names himself after sadness and misery?! We are to fight against such things, not support them. As I understand, Shadowstrike has a companion who was once enslaved to the Sorrow King. Do we wish that fate upon the people of the Fey Woods? The Fey may be fickle and uncertain, which obviously makes them dangerous, but the Sorrow King is very clearly a threat, a being whose goals are DIAMETRICALLY opposed to ours. Just because an enemy looks too strong to be fought does NOT mean we should not try. Just because they offer us weapons and tools we may not otherwise have access to, does not mean we should agree. If we take this stance we may as well pack up, go home, and stop pretending this is anything but an elaborate power game. If we make this deal, we will be no better than any of the enemies we have fought. I cannot and will not support this. I hope enough people see reason, and refuse as, is the only just course. |
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| Santiago | 12 Mar 2012, 16:47 Post #8 |
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As the noble Lords Varis adn Asthvan have been brief I will attempt to also be. My initial reaction to the idea of this deal would be to treat it with caution and be hesistant, yet after careful thought I would support this accomodation for the folowing reasons: 1) The lands the Shadowfell are proposing they take within the woods are too far from our borders to assist the people there anyway. We have no way in reaching them with the light of civilization for a long time to come either, so the preventing of large military forces waging a bloody war upon their land may be more preferable to them than us offering them protections we can not guarantee. 2) From everything that we have learnt of the Shadowfell we know that they worship the queen of death, they believe death is inevitable, and so probably believe it is permemnant. We might be able to gain their help to remove a thorny problem from our side, namely the Vaneer. 3) It enables us to gain military advances that we otherwise would not be able to gain, short of wiping out the entire Shadowfell, which could be of a great help to us, especially given the large number of threats the kingdom constantly faces. 4) The information gathered by them on the other races may prove to be fruitful, this would aid us in the huge problem that we have facing us which is that we are surrounded and there are enemy threats everywhere. 5) Apart from those within the council who are oathsworn, and who were warned not to become so quite vehemently by many within the council, the fey probably will not care one dot whether we agree to this or dont. 6) As Asthvan points out it is a one time deal. THis does not prevent us from using the deal to our advantage to buy us one of the most critical commodities we need - time. At least, unlike the Generals or the Lycans, this particular threat is prepared to come to the negotiating table. As for the cons to this proposal: 1) They are, as Slath reminds us, diametrically opposed to us. This though does not stop us from neccesarily using their deal to buys ourselves a little breathing room and prevent open war with yet another group. 2) It is a own time deal that may back fire. Overall I am for this arrangment as sometime pragmatism must outweigh ideals. If this deal presents us a way to nullify temporarily a threat to our northern border, and allow us expansion there for a while without the threat of their raids then we should take this and work out later how to deal with the true threat they pose. We should not simply decline an offer based upon morals that in the face of reality may well lead to athesia fighting a war we cannot possibly win. While the offer is available that grants us the time to pause and gather and prepare we should take it. |
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| Varis Liadon | 12 Mar 2012, 16:59 Post #9 |
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Chris Burton
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I would be interested to see what your reaction would be if the same offer was made by Devils in the Dark Plains. I have gained the impression Francis that you care little of the Lands outside of the Dark Plains and are more than happy to sacrifice the others for your own ends. We are Heroes. The people rely on us. Our decision here as all others sets a precedent. What sort of Heroes do we want to be? I want to be the sort of Hero that the people can see in the street and be proud of. I don't think i could ever face the people of the Fey Woods if I did not stand there with them when the armies of the Shadowsworn arrived with the intention of taking over. You say I might not need to die? I will choose death in battle with a great threat than making a deal that will see us sacrifice people for a "short breather". You other Heroes can decide as you will, but I know that when they arrive, I will be standing with the Oathbound, not just because I too am Oathbound, but because I will be damned if I let these bastards spread their sorrow even if it's just to the woods |
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| Santiago | 12 Mar 2012, 17:11 Post #10 |
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My Lord Varis your words once more advocate a position of war with every singular race of Athesia that does not ascribe to our ideals. Like it or not the Shadowfell plan to move against the Feywoods, and given our lack of knowledge possibly have just claim or are already present. We all, heroes of Athesia, do need to set an example, but we are also responsible for the lands and people that have already joined us. They have joined us for protection, and not always is protection best found through strength of arm, but also through on occasion negotiation. Our first thoughts should be to those that we currently need to protect and worry about those we can not yet protect later. While this may not be the highest of ideals it does indeed though mean that we are loyal to those we currently have a duty to protect. It is not merely a small brether the deal offers us but the ability to upgrade our forces with weaponary we have not merely got the knowledge to create. To fight a war against Evil is one thing, but to fight one against a suprior force, risking the lives of all those who we currently are sworn to protect, is not merely selfish idealism but condemning hundreds and thousands to death. You ask if I would take a deal with the devils which stalk the plains. THe devils which stalk the plains are not intelligent beings with which negotiation or peace is possible, perhaps if they were and if I perceived that pragmatism was better for those we are already sworn to protect I would consider the deal no matter how bitter it sat, because the safety of those already sworn to Athesia must come first. On the note of you being Oathsworn, you have put yourself in danger with it as it was your choice, and you were warned by many not to do it. Perhaps if you had heeded their wisdom, and not merely sought further power for yourself, then this conundrum would not be upon you right now. |
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