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| ACES Weight Pull rules | |
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| Topic Started: 16/07/2009 - 02:35 pm (752 Views) | |
| ghostlyease | 16/07/2009 - 02:35 pm Post #1 |
Management
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Dogs must be over 6 months old, 6 - 12 months old pups will pull no weight just an aided cart. Dogs must pull on a harness Bitches in season or in pup are not allowed to compete Dogs must complete the pull in 60 seconds, time starts once the handler has released the dog to start pulling, if a tangle is called then the time will be stopped to allow the handler to untangle their dog and restarted, a dog can have a maximum of 2 tangles per pull. ACES have 2 classes for weight pull. Novice dogs = dogs that have never pulled or not pulled 1 weight increment. Experienced dogs = dogs that have pulled before and pulled 1 weight increment or more. Experienced dog handlers can start pulling their dog at the weight they wish to come in at, after their first pull a handler can not choose to skip more than 2 increases in weight. Experienced dogs must be hooked up to the cart then leads removed and handed to the break person. Handlers must not make contact with their dog after it has started to pull unless a tangle is called, if a handler makes contact with the dog, its collar or harness the pull will be classed as assisted and the dog will fail that weight and finish that competition there, however if a dog touches its owner then this is acceptable. It is the handlers decision to bait or not, no penalty shall be incurred for baiting. Saying this if at any point ACES do decide to give WP titles out the achievements would have to be: 1: ACES WP1 = 19 X the Dogs Body Weight Un-baited, 20 X Dogs Body Weight, Baited 2: ACES WP2 = 26 X the Dogs Body Weight Un-baited, 27 X Dogs Body Weight, Baited 3: ACES WP3 = 34 X the Dogs Body Weight Un-baited, 25 X Dogs Body Weight, Baited Still more to come! we will update as we need |
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| ghostlyease | 24/08/2009 - 03:45 pm Post #2 |
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It would seem that even though the ACES weight pull rules have been up for a fair few weeks there was uncertainty on the actual day, the rules were put up so they could be discussed and modified if needed, no one did, so we kinda thought things could go ahead, those that had issue with things yesterday can we please have some input so we can sort it out and get some rules down in black and white that we are all happy with please. :X |
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| Gwains better half | 24/08/2009 - 06:47 pm Post #3 |
Gwains Better Half
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No baiting allowed. It was proven that all dogs yesterday pulled really well without being baited. If baiting is allowed then it should only be allowed with approved toys, not animal skins pieces of cloth or anything that looks like a dead animal. Nice colourful toy from the nice pretty pet shop or treat rewards. the toy/treat could be in the pocket and produced for the dog at the end of the pull. This makes it acceptable to the public viewing and differentiates between sensible dog owners and silly w******s who are baiting their dogs for other reasons, we have all seen those idiots on the telly with weight pull harnesses on their dogs baiting with dead things, people not accostomed to athletic dog days will just see you all doing the same as them. I am not against baiting every dog sport/training uses a form of baiting (usually called reward based training) it just needs to be tamed down for the untrained eye.
Edited by Gwains better half, 24/08/2009 - 06:50 pm.
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| ghostlyease | 24/08/2009 - 07:12 pm Post #4 |
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Thanks for your input Kate, nice to hear opinions, you do have many valid points. |
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| capleton | 24/08/2009 - 07:22 pm Post #5 |
never get tired of being admired
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Im new to all the weight pulling, but i agree with Kate, that if dogs are baited, it need sto be done with something that looks inoffensive, we certainly dont need to be courting controversy.......................... Cheers Roy...................... |
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| gamester | 24/08/2009 - 08:13 pm Post #6 |
Valued Contributor
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i agree with above..... looks much better if the dogs are in harnesses only and no baiting. if you have baiting then to joe bloggs it looks like they are being teased, but if they are doing it without bait then maybe joe bloggs will think "wow" what loyal dogs! they must have a great relationship with their owners! which would be true. if you allow baiting then you will end up with everyone baiting. |
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| ghostlyease | 27/08/2009 - 01:31 pm Post #7 |
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Management
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OK I get where you guys and gals are coming from but I have to be honest I do not see the difference with getting a dog to chase the lure (baited) and getting a dog to go over the A-Frame (baited) is it being suggested that ACES go totally non baited, we shall have to start doing 100 meter race by recall and A-Frame by command, I personally do not want to go down that route. As a matter of interest those that say not to bait what is the difference with making a dog jump over an A-Frame as many times as you can in 60 seconds by means of a horse whip or toy, tying a bit of old animal fur to the end of a lure for the dog to chase as quickly as possible and getting your dog to pull the maximum weight possible by the same method? I do feel we all have a responsibility to be sensible and I know all of our members are, but to blanket ban something because it may be seen as baiting would mean a major change to all ACES events wouldnt it? |
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| capleton | 27/08/2009 - 01:43 pm Post #8 |
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never get tired of being admired
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Personally Keeley, my only issue would be baiting with summat that looked like a dead animal. My little girl Khelis would be horrified to see a dog being baited with what looked like a dead animal or similar. she loved the ACES day, and wants to go to dog shows now, and i really love her company. if baiting the dogs gets them to do more, ive not problem with it if thats what everyone wants. A-Frame and running would lack summat if the was no visual aid used i think................just my opinion......... B-) |
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| pwk | 27/08/2009 - 02:55 pm Post #9 |
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Newbie
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Bit of a difference Keeley. You work your dogs in prey drive & this is what gets the best results for a frame & lure. Trouble with doing it with wp is once the dog reaches it's limit it leads to frustration & sling shotting. This will sooner or later lead to a dog injuring it self. I have seen you pull your dogs without baiting, as well as others on here. They all did well. Why then go back to baiting? |
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| shoe | 27/08/2009 - 05:32 pm Post #10 |
Board God!
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Capleton...that would never happen, the best we can do at the moment is pieces of cheese!! |
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| ghostlyease | 27/08/2009 - 08:52 pm Post #11 |
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Frustration or focus? the likes of Clyde do not get frustrated but they do an arf pull shed loads more with that piece of cheese in front of his nose, lol. As for baiting with anything resembling an animal, never gonna happen, I suppose thats where common sense comes in although I have seen it used elsewhere but I can say it would not be used at an ACES event. |
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| capleton | 27/08/2009 - 09:03 pm Post #12 |
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never get tired of being admired
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I thought it would never happen, just wanted to clarify........................... B-) |
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| PAUL IBT | 27/08/2009 - 11:22 pm Post #13 |
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Newbie
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Hi, my thoughts at present, which may change with experience. The age restrictions and separation of novice class makes sense as does the harness and no bitches in heat. The no touching / helping your dog pull sounds fair. If everyone takes part with a good attitude this should be fine. I’ve yet to see any pro football style gamesmanship. I have no problems with baiting, even with skins or hide but I do understand the desire not to offend others. I think a pull by voice command alone is more impressive and for this reason and to promote the evolution of non baited pulls it might be worth considering a greater margin on the points awarded towards champion status for pulls without baiting. This could be applied to the A-frame also. For the 100 metres dash the lure could be replaced by the owner running ahead of the dog I can’t see the 9 seconds being broken any more but if it is and in time for 2012 London we’ll be in the medals and not just with the dogs. Sorry I’m talking nonsense and not for the first time. The lure represents a rabbit and I would be happy for it to look a little more rabbit like. A general statement that all baiting toys are at the managements discretion may need to be added to the rules. Just in case. The time limit in weight pull will limit the amount of sling shooting that can occur. Staying close to your dog I think limit’s the shooting lunge but some dogs do this while others take to the desired steady pull naturally. It’s up to us to recognise our dogs limits and pull them out when the limits are reached. I’ve yet to see anything other than the dogs interest paramount at an ACES meet. As for the not allowed to skip more than two weight increases once started sounds fine at present. Perhaps someone could advise how human competition weight lifting rules work on this point and we use this as a guide. All the Best , Paul. |
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| LeighandApple | 28/08/2009 - 11:34 am Post #14 |
Valued Contributor
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If baiting is allowed it needs to be written into the rules what type of bait is allowed to be used ie furry toys, animal hides, squeeky toys, food etc. There seems to be a big difference between the two main types of baiting that we've seen, baiting with food or toys. Baiting with food doesn't seem to make the dogs lunge and snap but can cause an unfair disadvantage if food is dropped as the smell will be a distraction to the other dogs. Toy baiting on the other hand usually makes the dog lunge and snap which could be an accident waiting to happen when dogs are lunging and almost biting their owners' hands or face. Plus it can't be good for the dog's shoulders when heavier weights are achieved. Personally we don't really mind if people want to use baits for weight pull. What we need to decide though is whether we "all" want to compete as a club at other events or only as individuals? Because as already stated baiting is not allowed at most weight pull events. We personally would love to see ACES competing as a large club at all events not just with one or two dogs. As the athletic dog events become more commen place and more clubs start springing up do we not want ACES to be at the fore front of how to do it in the right way? We all know all too well it's easier to start out in the right way than trying to correct the mistakes later on. What we also need to decide is whether weight pull is going to be just an in house event or are we going to promote this to the general public at events ie Paws in the park etc? If we want this sport to be accepted by the general public in a possitve way we don't believe baiting would be acceptable. As the general dog owner would not want to see (or understand) dogs lunging and snapping. To summerise if baiting is allowed more people than not will choose the easy option to bait and this will limit the number of dogs we can compete with as a club at other events and will not promote our dogs in the right light (like we all say we want). Sorry for the rant but all of these issues needs to be discussed as we are already starting to compete in weight pull and for the day to run smoothly all rule need to be decided and posted before the day. |
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| ghostlyease | 30/08/2009 - 12:32 pm Post #15 |
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The UPF promote weight pulling at Paws in the Park Lee & Apple I think ill start a poll and get the members to vote and comment if they so wish, easiest way to find out mass thoughts. |
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| ghostlyease | 30/08/2009 - 01:01 pm Post #16 |
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Also remember when other organisations pull on our rails we run by their rules, at the IKC event next week we shall pull under Eds rules that are completeley different to the UPF rules who will be using the rails in a few weeks time. |
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| gamester | 30/08/2009 - 04:16 pm Post #17 |
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Valued Contributor
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personally i dont have a problem with using food as a bait for two reasons. firstly as others have said, dogs dont snatch at food as they do at toys. secondly, if we attend other events without baiting, including food, then we could always rub the food in our hands so the smell is there and then give the dog a tit-bit after each round and the dogs would feel that food is always given, weather at a baiting event or not! hope that makes sence!!! |
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| LeighandApple | 30/08/2009 - 04:51 pm Post #18 |
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Valued Contributor
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Don't quote me on this Ian as I might not be right but if you are thinking of pulling at UPF then I think treating after each pull is not allow. I don't really know about the rules of other organisation. |
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| Shipley,Staffords | 30/08/2009 - 06:24 pm Post #19 |
Board God!
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Yep,that is correct no form off baiting whatsoever ! Not even after a pull as you cannot even have food treats in your pocket ! I personally think a slower unbaited approach to pulling is the way to go for now , at least then people can see a dog pulling for it's handler & not stressing out for a toy/treat ! Saying that,i still have lots off work to do with Quest,would a firework up his arse count as baiting ? lol Terry. |
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| LeighandApple | 30/08/2009 - 06:45 pm Post #20 |
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Ummmmm.......that's debatable Terry..........may be not baiting but more like assisted lol |
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| gamester | 31/08/2009 - 11:46 am Post #21 |
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Valued Contributor
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fine by me..... lets go no baiting! i also think having the weight divisions is a good thing. what do folks think about having two winners in each weight division, i.e. pound for pound and strongest dog overall instead of having first too forth? explantion.... this is what is done in the main comp, too me this seems like a sensible thing to do and would be a fairer way for all dogs. this is how most organisations in america do it! |
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| MNO | 31/08/2009 - 06:17 pm Post #22 |
ACES Addict
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This is a hard one!! I was not a fan of weight pull until I saw Boomer pulling. He converted me! My daughter saw some dogs pulling and didn't like it at all. I do not agree with her views but her views maybe shared by the public. I don't think that people understand the strength that our dogs have and by baiting them it may look like we are forcing them but would they think the same if they were unbaited??? Probably!! |
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| southsidestaffords | 31/08/2009 - 06:44 pm Post #23 |
Management
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To do this we would have to put up the entry fee to some thing like £12.50 like the other clubs to cover cost for rosetts and trophies and i dont think people would want to pay this.If people want to go to the next level then they can make that decision.At the end of the day it ment to be fun for you and your dogs!!!! |
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| PAUL IBT | 31/08/2009 - 08:39 pm Post #24 |
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Newbie
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I agree the low cost/ high fun element of an ACES day is an attraction for my family. ATB, Paul. |
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| Shipley,Staffords | 31/08/2009 - 09:19 pm Post #25 |
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Board God!
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P,haps if people were willing to sponser certain events it may lead to bigger prizes,but for £5 pound i think peeps & their dogs have a pretty good day out !!!! ^o) |
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