| Un-frackin-believable. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 17 2009, 06:02 PM (2,126 Views) | |
| The Punisher | Mar 26 2009, 03:38 PM Post #31 |
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Thanks, some folks are blinded by their faith. |
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| Gringa | Mar 26 2009, 04:26 PM Post #32 |
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Yep, aint that the truth... so to speak |
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| Big Earl | Mar 26 2009, 04:58 PM Post #33 |
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Ostrich Sized
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Edited by Big Earl, Jun 7 2009, 02:12 PM.
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| Mtnman | Mar 26 2009, 05:07 PM Post #34 |
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I'm with Earl.
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| Nevski | Mar 26 2009, 11:39 PM Post #35 |
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A bit of background, TP. I hold degrees in biblical studies, philosophy of religion, and theology. After receiving my Masters in theology from an institution that was Evangelical Protestant in its orientation, I spent a decade reading about Byzantine faith and practice, which entailed delving more deeply into church history and historical theology than I had previously done. All this was in keeping with a shift in my thinking from Protestant to "Catholic", which ultimately resulted in my conversion to Orthodox Christianity in the early 1990s. I don't mean to boast, but not only am I pretty well-read in these areas, I know how to argue these issues. I've been engaging Evangelicals regarding the issues that divide us for about ten years, and I'm reasonably certain that my participation in one long-standing debate with one Calvinist online outfit eventuated in its disappearance. I know every single argument an Evangelical Christian poses against historic Catholic faith, and I know how to counter every one. I'm therefore tempted to answer you point by point. Only thing is, I'm getting old and tired, but most importantly bored when it comes to the kind of "apologetics" I've referenced here. So, I will take one shot at your post, and maybe a reply or two, depnding on how your respond, and then move on. Frankly, I don't have the time or the energy to expend trying to instruct someone who hasn't a clue as to what he's talking about. But for the sake of at least trying to provide a bit of illumination for you, I'll play along briefly.
I'll try my best. But why the scare quotes around the word "church?" Doesn't the "Good Book" indicate that Christ left one behind? Somewhere you've found some online source that begins as follows:
You don't cite the source (shame on you), but it's clear it's some sort of fundy, "negative biblicist" repository of anti-Catholic spew. Would you care to name it for us? The source sets forth the typical hoo-haw about the Decalogue and idolatry. Answer me this, however: if the commandment re: graven images means what you think it does, why did Solomon's temple have images? Why did the Hellenic synagogues at Dura-Europa and other places have images? Do you suppose that maybe the commandment against images had something to do with the PAGAN WORSHIP of surrounding cultures? Have you examined the immediate and broader contexts of that proscription, which contexts suggest that this is precisely the case? Fr. John Whiteford on images and their veneration: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/icon_faq.aspx
Actually, virtually all Protestant Bibles do as well. Have a look sometime.
Catholics and Orthodox *invoke* the assistance of Mary and the Saints. They do not “pray” to them as deities. They *solicit* their prayers, much as you would solicit the prayers of your fellow believers. The fact that Mary and the Saints are no longer living on this earth is irrelevant. The barrier between the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant is a thin one indeed.
They’re not "gods". Read up on it sometime.
Even if the doctrine of papal infallibility (ex cathedra) did entail the notion that “his words are God’s words” (which it doesn’t), it bears no relation whatsoever to the content of the Third Commandment.
Huh? Once more with clarity, TP.
“Call no man ‘father’”: http://www.synaxis.org/cnet/stjohn/call-no-man.html St. Paul, speaking of himself: “For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.” I Cor. 4:15. That's just one verse of a number that show your objection to be the silliness that it is.
Again, huh? Where do you get this stuff? That’s just moronic. Here’s a little primer for you on the Crusades, BTW: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0055.html
Hoo-boy. You’re obviously a fundy - and a very much *cultic* - anti-Catholic bigot. I’m done with you’re running commentary on the Decalogue. I think my work is done in that regard, anyway. So, moving on:
Argument from silence. Show me where the “Good Book” approves building church edifices. Or saying the Pledge of Allegiance. Or voting for politicians. Or any number of things that you mindless negative biblicists do.
Really? You might want to have another look at the Old Testament sometime. And then you might consider the works of liturgical historians such as Gregory Dix, who show how Jewish rites were naturally copied to some degree by early Christians. By the way, it’s “penance”, not “pittance.” Moreover, show me where the "Good Book" clearly establishes the proposition that all matters of faith and practice are to be adjudicated by reference to the "Good Book." In other words, show me the scriptural foundation of the Protestant doctrine of sola Scriptura. Search far and wide for it, Punisher. But I assure you it isn't there. Lastly, you set forth an incoherent argument peppered with proof texts about “legalism.” You clearly have no clue as to what legalism really is, and the flip side of that is that you clearly haven’t grappled with the issue of antinomianism. But that’s what we’d expect from ignorant Protestant fundamentalists caught up in the “Easy Believism” heresy. Try Bonhoeffer’s book The Cost of Discipleship for the needed antidote. Read what he says there about "cheap grace." I think I’ve asked you once before, and you declined to answer, but what, exactly, is your faith tradition? You don’t have to name the church; just indicate the denomination if you would. I believe your answer will speak volumes. I don’t mean to offend, but I’ve rarely if ever encountered someone who knows so little about the issues, someone who is so woefully unread, as you. And that’s why, as I stated previously, I don’t intend to waste much of my time with you. You’re about as ignorant of biblical, theological and historical matters as you are of conservatism. Sorry, but there it is. Edited by Nevski, Mar 26 2009, 11:44 PM.
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| Nevski | Mar 26 2009, 11:50 PM Post #36 |
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It's not so much that you're "closed-minded", Yhitzak. It's more like you're patently, and I would say willfully, ignorant. Anyone who "thinks" that B16 was or is a Nazi is simply not paying attention to all the pertinent evidence. And anyone who willfully persists in that kind of idiocy simply isn't worth giving the time of day. Edited by Nevski, Mar 26 2009, 11:57 PM.
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| Hello again | Mar 27 2009, 12:21 AM Post #37 |
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Nevski, where are your degrees from? |
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| Yhitzak | Mar 27 2009, 06:57 AM Post #38 |
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Willfully ignorant, eh? Coming from a self-professed Orthodox Christian, I think I'm doing just fine on that count. Heh. It's not willful ignorance or persisting in idiocy to take into account the man's history, beliefs, and actions, especially when he's supposed to be God's representative on Earth. But this is why I am not a follower of organized religion: I believe in freedom of thought and of belief. Ratzinger's holiness is not for you, me, or anyone but those members of the church who rank high enough to vote to determine, and your explanation or response is extremely base. I challenge that you don't have the answer, but instead of admitting so, you'd rather just tell me that I'm not worth the time of day. This is all a matter of perspective, and you're putting your ideas forth as though they are incontrovertible truth. I've said it before and I'll say it again: From "A Fish Called Wanda" Otto: Apes can't read philosophy! Wanda: Yes, they can, Otto! They just don't understand it! |
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| Mtnman | Mar 27 2009, 08:34 AM Post #39 |
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http://www.speedydegrees.com/ |
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| dumblonde | Mar 28 2009, 01:03 PM Post #40 |
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Funny. To me it's all superstition, so this is like listening to you guys arguing about whether breaking a mirror or walking under a ladder are worse luck. |
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12:54 PM Jul 11